Why should we be made to lie?

No they don't or TRA wouldn't get upset about the space

I've just heard that 'transwomen' is not allowed and it has to be 'trans women'. Is this true? I'm new to this forum and don't know where to look.

No, I don't think this is true and I don't think MNHQ have ever said this. If it is, I am about to get deleted majorly. Going back to the dictionary, trans woman, transwoman or trans-woman mean exactly the same thing.

Staff as far as I know you don't need a space...not sure where that came from but I have read other women say it these past few days! As for your second paragraph...YY!!

I've just heard that 'transwomen' is not allowed and it has to be 'trans women'. Is this true? I'm new to this forum and don't know where to look.

How about male-born transfolk - is that OK? I don't really get wtf this is all about apart from men trying to control women.

So what's new?

I've mentioned the dictionary definition of women. Not because I hold any particular faith in the truth of dictionaries, they just reflect usage. But in the case of the word "woman", the dictionary definition is the only (non-circular) one advanced so far by either side in this debate. What's more, a lot of processes and laws have been set up assuming that definition, so changing it would have wide reaching consequences. As would not having a simple and generally understood term for the entities formerly known as women should it get changed.

And anyway, our term, what gives you the right to obliterate it? Ask the women, all the women. Ask the men whether a transitioned woman is a man too.

Already seeing the awkwardness with this attempt at changing terminology around whether "women" or "people with cervixes" should be invited for smear tests. I don't think the database at my doctors' has a tick box for "person with cervix" but it does have one for male/female. Systems just aren't set up for the possibility that women are male. Stick to being men and add a new subclass of men - I personally am not even bothered if it's called transwomen as long as that isn't used as a push-off point for a bid for trans woman and then woman. I think the reason a lot of feminists are no longer happy to use transwomen, even if they may have been before, was because it clearly was and is being used in that way.

I concluded a while ago that a lot of the underpinning and attraction towards trans ideology is power. The ability to coerce counter intuitive language out of people and to get people to say lies that they also know is a lie. The manipulation techniques are quite stunning.

Why should we lie to make men feel better??

I know, it's awful to treat us so callously and then demand courtesy.

So glad to hear you all feel the same as me - until quite recently, I was happy to use preferred pronouns and terminology to 'be polite' but now I just think 'fuck that shit I'm not lying'.

Why should we lie to make men feel better??

They're not being polite to us, so no more being polite back.

Neuro Linguistic Programming I primarily always viewed as a bad thing. After all, it is about control of another, and pretty much against their will.

I feel like I am caught up in one of those evo psycho experiments they used to do on children in the seventies.
Me too. :(

Same position Re: work but I've found that talking about it makes the fear bogeyman vanish. It's so much better to be out in the open. I've actually said how upsetting it is to be forced to call men, women. They look a bit as we are not supposed to be the upset ones, we are supposed to be the meanies.

We are forced to lie to placate men.

Actually, that’s not fair - many transsexuals don’t fall into that camp and don’t support that idea.

I feel like I am caught up in one of those evo psycho experiments they used to do on children in the seventies.

^ bewilderness I totally agree.
except it’s on a new wholesale level such that eg if I speak out about it at work I would be done for bullying and potentially be sacked. The experiment is covert and breaks all ethical norms. That’s not to mention the children to young to consent for themselves risking being drugged, sterilised and surgically mutilated in order to be ‘affirmed’ according to adults who believe in the tenets of this dogma.

I heard an NHS person mention ‘gender confirmation’ surgery the other day. On the one hand they were talking bloody nonsense, on the other hand they were accurately describing the visitation by surgery of gender literally on someone’s body.

That’s why ehen they do get a vagina they often shout about it from the rooftops.

www.google.co.uk/amp/www.indy100.com/article/juno-roche-trans-author-interview-queer-sex-representation-desire-transition-8339396%3famp

Yes it's so transparent. Womb envy.

Thecextreme Transactivists are trying to erase female biology as having anything to do with being a woman. Only because they don’t have female biology.

say it means that because is THE only word that accurately encapsulates the adult person with the female reproductive role, and without it you have NO word to describe the adult person with the female reproductive role.

Exactly. Rat seems a bit confused here. It's not about saying "it's in the dictionary so ner" as she seems to be doing herself.

Somebody should tell him it's transactivists reducing women to 'people with a cervix'

The uterus is responsible for his entire life.

Idiots

I mean this is the mindset of the folk advising the government on these issues.

I’m more worried about being forced to lie and being forced to talk in a certain way out in the real world being legislated by government
me too . Its social programming - very scary.

I used to use the term transwoman, (which my autocorrect always tries to put a bloody space in) because my intention was to be polite and respectful. Never trans woman though- because not a woman. I am not sharing my category and becoming a subcategory of my own sex, thanks. Also cis is offensive to me for the same reasons.

But using transwoman has changed a bit for me:

• I don’t feel like being courteous when I am forced to be so
• I don’t feel like being courteous when the TRA lobby insisting on it is so authoritarian and misogynistic as to threaten and attack women for meeting and speaking etc
• I also write for lurkers because I was one for a long time and when I was just starting to read these threads I thought transwoman might mean a natal woman who identified as trans.

• however my understanding of MN rules is sex based terms are out and gender based terms are allowed but that brings me back to the first point that not everyone understands what gender based terms actually refer to. Society in general used sex based terms like woman or man. So actually we are being not allowed to use sex based terms at a point when it feels more important to do so both for clarity and solidarity with women reasons.

Mumsnetbis a private company run for profit and facing s huge amount of attack. Shame if they have to cave to these self obssessd dictatorial (was so tempted to say dicktatorial but I won’t go low) numpties - I’m more worried about being forced to lie and being forced to talk in a certain way out in the real world being legislated by government.

Yes, also fuck that from me. Fuck it.