Kylie Jenner Father's Day Post

listener what do you think gender is then? If it isn't biology or stereotypes, what is it? What are people identifying with?

Thanks for all the responses and questions. I'm not sure I can get to all the messages but will hopefully cover the main points.

Fermats the tone of your post seemed to be arguing against my view point but then you said:

"When a group of people tell you that they find a blanket term you are applying to them offensive (even taking the time to explain why they find it offensive) if you want to engage in polite discussion with them you should stop using it."

I agree 100% - this is exactly what I've been saying so it seems we're on the same page. I have no intent of being deliberately offensive. I have no intent of lecturing people and I don't think I have lectured at any point.

Regarding numerous other comments (apologies this won't cover them all) for me "cis" doesn't mean/imply that stereotypes are reinforced. It simply means that a persons sex and gender are aligned. For some people their sex and gender may differ and in these instances they aren't cis.

If sex is female and gender is also female that doesn't mean there is an expected stereotype you must conform to because the prefix "cis" is applied. If we look at Grayson Perry who (I think) would say his sex is male and his gender is male. He would therefore be "cis" by the definition as I understand it. However he often dresses in women's clothing and presents as female - him being cis doesn't mean a stereotype has to be obeyed.

Growing up I certainly didn't conform to gender stereotypes and was often bullied for it. This doesn't cause any conflict for me or mean I'm anything other than cis now. Obviously every person has their own journey with this and will come to different outcomes and I hear and respect them. My experience isn't "right" it's just my experience and nothing more.

I hope the above goes some way to explaining my thoughts on it. I don't think I have much more to add and of course you are free to disagree and I'm sure you will!

Thanks all for your input and differing views.

There is more than enough transexual theads kicking about that members could jump in and talk about if they wanted .

It isn't hidden it popped up in active conversations do you think Feminism chat is ina dusty corner of munsnet ?

This post would actually be great posted in chat just so other MN users can see and discuss rather than them being hidden in FC

It’s time we all woke up

moonkissed I so agree with your wonderful long rambling post upthread... it expresses everything I feel and the journey I too have taken...and of course is why the TRAs are doing the transsexuals so much harm.... Though I still haven't worked out how they get away with calling them Tru-scum and where that came from

In general, I try to call people by the pronoun they prefer. I am happy to do so, as long as I have the choice. The same way I will call a Stephen Steve if he prefers, and would try to address a woman as "ms" or "Mrs" etc if that's what she wants. It seems polite to me.

I do not want to be compelled to do so, however.

And I am not Cis. My sex does not match my "gender" (or certainly not any definition of gender I've seen).
If you think that I don't know what its like to feel squeezed by societal expectations due to my genitalia, you're wrong. I was a "Tomboy" as a child, and as a teenager I increasingly felt (like loads of teenagers) like a bit of an alien. I grew up into a biological female who fits the stereotypical female gender in some ways, and not in others. ie, I am an individual human being of the female sex.
In fact, there was nothing wrong with me as a teenager, nor was there anything "boyish" about me as a child. I was an individual with an individual personality. My interest in maths and logic etc do not mean I have a "little bit of a male brain", they mean I have a female brain that is good at maths and logic.
I am lucky in that the mismatch for me is much smaller than it is for many other women.

The reason many feminists dislike the term "Cis" is because it assumes they have never struggled with a mismatch between their biological sex and society's expectations of how that sex should behave. You can surely see how this would annoy those who have struggled in this way? Especially those who have struggled more than others?

However, I still don't think the term Cis should be banned.
It is annoying, rude and many find it offensive, but it is not literal violence and it is not abuse. Neither is misgendering.

Listener73 if cis has no implied societal meaning it is meaningless and there is no point in using it

Listener you're not ready living up to your username, are you? You remind me a bit of people who faux-naively say "but if people from Afghanistan are Afghans, why can't I call people from Pakistan.. "

When a group of people tell you that they find a blanket term you are applying to them offensive (even taking the time to explain why they find it offensive) if you want to engage in polite discussion with them you should stop using it.

Of course if you want to be deliberately offensive, crack on. I'm all in favour of free speech. But do be aware that free speech comes with consequences. In this case that the people you want to lecture about their wrong speak may choose in return not to engage with you.

Huh. The law is an ass. Who knew?

listener what do you think a female gender is then? If 'cis' means that sex and gender are aligned, what is gender? How do I identify it?

I don't think you can interpret that as Kylie Jenner not seeing Caitlin as a woman. We don't know how she feels and shouldn't guess.

My grandparent was transgender, male to female. Me and my mum always called her 'she' but my mum also said that she was 'her dad'. Just because she had accepted the transition doesn't mean the role of 'dad' was gone. She already had a mum and did not want to give her dad a lesser, non parental title just because of transition.

Soapbox I don't see cis as having implied societal expectations attached to it. As I understand it cis means that your sex and your gender are the same. So sex = female and gender = female. You can behave how you wish though.

You can be cis gender and female and still be a big football fan, and drinker of pints; conforming to societal behaviours typically associated with men doesn't conflict with being cis..

P.S. Along with many on here I didn't want MN to 'ban' the use of cis. I think it show people who use it up quite successfully

transplants and plants

Sparerib

No you aren't alone in that. It's not a good analogy

Mind you, transplants and plats are the same thing so...

Apart from the exemptions in both the GRA and EA.

Gender Recognition Act 2004:

"Where a full gender recognition certificate is issued to a person, the person’s gender becomes for all purposes the acquired gender (so that, if the acquired gender is the male gender, the person’s sex becomes that of a man and, if it is the female gender, the person’s sex becomes that of a woman)."

Transwomen have the legal right to be treated as if they were women I think. Rather than the law actually stating that they have changed sex.

Which would be bollocks.

he is her dad. But I was also just thinking about it in this climate of having to be so careful about deadnaming and misgendering.

Yes - misgendering like you just did.

Is it transphobic of me to call Caitlyn Jenner a man?

Yes. That's why the MN guidelines say you shouldn't do it.

Surely if 'transwomen are women' and our laws are to be changed to make this so

The law has already changed and trans women can be legally women if they want.

Similarly I haven’t seen anything where women are being told they have to move over, but I have seen trans women being given space to contribute (although sports competing is a thorny issue and I don’t pretend to have the answer to this maybe some kind of handicap?). nb I’m not saying these viewpoints aren’t out there, just that I haven’t seen them. Most of my reading on this has come from MN boards!!

Don't take this the wrong way, but you don't appear to be paying much attention. There has been plenty of evidence of this both second hand from social media or organisations or policy and first hand on these very MN boards.

I feel we need to find a way of allowing everyone to be accommodated, I just don’t know how to do it!

I think some of it is a zero sum game. It's not possible both to respect the privacy and dignity of women who don't want their female spaces invaded by males, and also to please males who want to invade female spaces and women's privacy and dignity.

i find cis offensive, even cishet. i dont want to be called either of those things.

but i dont get to choose that because of my “cishet” privelege