Would you have transitioned if you were a child today?

the problem with identifying as ‘non binary’ is that you are just isolating yourself from your sex class and basically opting out of the gendered crap that the rest of us still have to put up with

Noone is forced to stay put and put up with it though are they. I mean perhaps this is how those stereotypes are finally shattered; one by one the young folk cotton on that the whole thing's a con, and escape the nonsense by calling what the stereotypes were meant to refer to "genders" and identifying the fuck out of both of them! All the while making no difference to their biological sex. Or perhaps just enough of them do it to make the whole idea of gender stereotypes applying to one sex or the other a completely ridiculous farce anyway.

So I don't think "non-binary" makes anything worse for anybody else at all really. Just because you don't call yourself non-binary doesn't mean you submit to a binary. People have a fair bit more intelligence than that.

There is a huge difference between being a tomboy and having gender dysmorphia. Please do not trivialize such things by suggesting there is any comparison.

Oh and another one who definatly didn't want children. No way. Not happening.

I now coo over every young child I see and physically hurt to not have one. Good job I didn't get myself steralised (which I considered requesting at one point because of periods!) as girls having blockers are potentially doing.

I never wanted to be a boy, but I certainly learnt very early into puberty how much men were "entitled" to and took without consequence. That didn't make me want to be male, it made me want to avoid them.

It was easier in the 70s and 80s in many ways - the world wasn't divided into pink and blue for childhood the way it is now. Tree-climbing and frog-catching and failed attempts at fishing sat happily alongside loving crafts and books and dolls. Obviously it was absolute shite once puberty kicked in - sexism and sexual assault was so common as to pass unremarked much of the time.

I must admit Daim's comment about "looking with envy" turned my stomach. We're looking in horror, as young people are pedalled crazy hocum that they are in the wrong body, not that puberty is weird and confusing but they are wonderful as they are and things will get better.

I think so. If I'd known it was an option
I'd have questioned it more and felt I must be a boy. I didn't at the time claim it but knowing how I think, or how I thought then, I'd have convinced myself. The only thing that might have stopped me is I was always very shy so didn't like drawing attention to myself. But if someone had suggested it if have gone along thinking yes, that must be it.

Another who didn't do skirts, makeup, pink etc. Largely because I didn't want to be girly. For that at least I have now stopped thinking what people care and started recognising what I do like and being less influenced (ì though I was so free thinking as I rebelled like everyone else!) But I still worry if I'm showing too much cleavage etc. So I haven't disregarded other's opinions entirely.

Sorry, that was very garbled. Hope it makes sense.

@Prawnofthepatriarchy @JuzzaL has every right to object to biological males using the term lesbian to describe themselves. She has her own definition of the word lesbian and it doesn't include anyone born male.

But @JuzzaL is saying I have no right to call myself a lesbian even though I am a biological woman in a relationship with another biological woman. That's a silly argument to start IMO.

I wasn't gender non conforming particularly, but I absolutely hated getting my period at first.

However after quite a short time I realized that my periods were regular to the hour and this gave me a new respect for my amazing female body. Then I discovered PIV sex and I was totally reconciled. Always hated periods though - the mess, the embarrassment, the pain. It was the reliability that blew me away.

This thread has made me realise that a lot of people wanted to reject being female rather than particularly wanting to be male.
So if there was a surgery and hormone free non binary option would you have taken it? Rather than a full on transition?

I think the point people are making is that we didn't conform to stereotypes. Society pushed the stereotypes to greater or lesser extents. And there was a lot of stereotype push and an individual happened to not want to go along with a lot of the stereotypes, some might well have taken the "change gender" option to fit in better. But actually they didn't have an issue with their gender, they had an issue with the gendered expectations, so when they grew up and had found niches they could follow their own interests without being constantly told they were doing their gender wrong, any interest in being the other sex went away. It's not being female we rejected, it's the gendered expectations themselves. (Hence: feminist.)

As an adult I'm quite happily able to be female and wear a mixture of clothes from the men's department and clothes from the women's department and ignore the hair-and-makeup-and-handbags thing and follow a mixture of interests with other people of either sex who share those interests. I think it's just easier to cross stereotypes as an adult. You have the confidence of knowing what you like, and you have more ability to surround yourself with like minded people. As a child doing similar things was much more judged and you may still be exploring what you like yourself.

For example if you're the only boy in the school who does ballet, you get grief; at ballet lessons much less so because you all have the shared interest; and if you go on to ballet school you're with a cohort of other young men all doing the same thing.

I think the pushing of stereotypes is much worse for kids these days too and that makes me sad. DD and I both had a short hair phase at around 4, no-one looked twice at mine, but DD got called a boy loads at preschool. DS got called a girl by classmates just for having a red coat. Not pink even, red.

Then there's the fact that puberty just isn't very attractive to any child. It isn't is it? I mean, growing boobs, you can no longer run around comfortably without finding and wearing a really good bra. Periods and all the hassle that comes with them. On the other hand hair everywhere and your voice going all weird and the embarrassment of wet dreams. Spots all round. Don't all children want to be Peter Pan?

I thought you did, Picasso, but thought it was worthwhile to explore the concept in detailed language to clarify any potential misunderstanding.

I think there is a link to tomboys of twenty odd years ago and the number of girls deciding they’re boys and ROGD.
Nowadays children hear far more about people being born in the wrong body, about self harm and suicide, there is unlimited access to the internet for a large number of young teenagers. The UK is far more divided into pink and blue boxes than it was 20 + years ago, leading to more confusion than when clothes were clothes and toys weee toys.
It’s a little short sighted not to see the links.

Daimbars, if they are, gay men have every right to object. It makes the term meaningless - biologically female people cannot be gay men, FFS. Two biologically female people in a sexual relationship are a lesbian couple.

This rubbish is particularly ironic given that dykes have always been among the most gender non conforming people there are.

Casualties.

I agree Prawn.

No one is an "identity" anything. Gender Identity is a US cultural phenomenon being exported around the world. The purpose of this export is to demobilise legal "sex" and create a worldwide legal framework for cross dressing males to be legally recognised as male and/or female.

Children are also causalities of this oppressive culture.

Actually, I’ve noticed a number of gay men starting to complain about the rising numbers of cervix-havers on hook up apps such as Grindr.

Obviously, the TRA part of LGBT is having a less pronounced affect on them than it’s had on the L and the B thus far, but it is starting to be discussed.

And to clarify: not just "yes", but also "and I believe it would have really fucked me up, and I would not have been able to have DS, who is the light of my life".

Yes.

Gay men are not under siege from biologically female people who say they are gay.

I agree they're not under siege but the trans guys I know in a relationship with each other refer to themselves as gay men even though they were born biologically female.

PicassosPaintbrush, I don't think there's any such thing as an "identity lesbian" and I feel strongly that lesbians have every right to object to what is an objectification of their sexual orientation.

Lesbians are getting the very worst of this gender bollocks, and from both sides. On one hand you have many young lesbians with ROGD persuading themselves and each other that they'll be happier if they screw up their bodies taking powerful drugs - and then, tragically, changing their minds. On the other, biologically male trans people are insisting that they too are lesbians and that to refuse to consider them as valid lesbian partners is bigoted.

Gay men are not under siege from biologically female people who say they are gay. It's only lesbians, and this illustrates the sense of sexual entitlement of the people pushing this rapey agenda. It was the Cotton Ceiling, back in 2012, that was my first lightbulb moment.

It used to be that male lesbians only turned up in the most sexist dinosaur's terrible jokes. Shame they didn't stay there.

I think your feelings are pretty common. I know quite a few trans guys in relationships with each other who were both born biologically female. It just shows how separate gender and sexuality is.

I’ve only just caught up. I’m a bit confused by your post tbh.

The trans guys you mention are still biologically female. I didn’t say I would be in a relationship with a trans guy if I was trans, I said I’ve always felt I should be a gay male. I would not want to be in a relationship with a biological female regardless of whether they are trans or not. Gay males would feel the same way, I would have thought, given that they’re, you know, gay.

Do you agree with me that there’s a likelihood I would have been trans had I been a teenager now then? Because being a gender non-confirming girl (which, back in the day, was just accepted) who was horrified at being female...I think I may have fallen in to thinking I was. I can think of at least another 2 female friends who absolutely would have been.

I don’t think an utter phobia of being pregnant or a female feeling like they should have been born a gay male is that common tbh.