The “100,000 people alive” DUP claim - evidence?

It's bigotry like this that makes me grateful I didn't grow up in Northern Ireland.

Jesus!

Amalfi it is mad!! I just hope people who would previously have voted for the parties that are now anti-abortion find it in them to be 'disloyal'. Let's see change!!!

I am loath to talk about it in truth, but I am raising a child thanks to having been lied to about birth control, and rightly or wrongly it’s incredibly hard to hear I’m the devil of piece as I would never have consented to sex and/or would have used a condom if I had not been lied to

Have you never heard of "doubling up"?

In any case I thought the advice for everyone post- Aids was use a condom regardless of other contraceptive methods unless and until one is in a committed relationship.

@SerendipityFelix prochoice no. Uup have said they'd be in favor of allowing abortion only when the babu or mothers lives are in grave danger.

Funnily enough it's the 'catholic' parties which are in favour of abortion, sinn fein and sdlp

Sinn fein were a republican party but from the early 90s there had been a deliberate agenda to leave those politics in the past and go more mainstream. So from the 90s on theyve been abandoning /are being abandoned by their traditional electorate.

NI politics is complex and I don’t have a great understanding of it - but are there any unionist pro-choice parties? I understand Sinn Fein has just voted to change their policies on abortion, which is great, but for many people they would never ever be an option to vote for because they are republican (right?)

@LastGirlOnTheLeft do you want to have a laugh? Tell you dh that there are several hard-line Republicans who did time in the kesh from South derry/east Tyrone that are now voting the dup on this very issue.

The place has went mad

My DH grew up in East Belfast and when I met him he just assumed I voted for Sinn Fein as I'm Catholic. I said nope...depends entirely on policies. He was amazed and said that where he grew up, everyone voted for the DUP, no matter what. Luckily he has courage and would never vote for that shower of prats! But it just shows you how entrenched politics is among some people in NI.

An excellent point about people still voting for the DUP, they don’t exist in a vacuum. I don’t begin to understand NI politics but I imagine they have a loyal fan base regardless of actual policy.
Which is why, as an outsider, it was so cheering to the voters in the ROI, despite longstanding beliefs they voted for change.
I can’t express what I feel about the government being in power with the support of the DUP. Surely the price isn’t worth it.

Agree with previous comments to MRA here. You can bitch and moan about it when you take all the responsibility of flooding your body with potentially dangerous hormones that can give you cancer, blood clots and severe depression. But no, that’s all up to women, just so that you don’t have to endure the hassle of putting on a condom. It’s a terrible shame for you that you have to pay out money and feel like a ‘mug’. Perhaps you now have some empathy for the millions of women whose careers have stalled and nosedived after having kids due to having to take responsibility for nearly all childcare, leading to huge financial loss over a lifetime.

or are "scream so loud that you can be heard in the waiting room" levels of painful to fit.

Speaking here of coils. The Mirena is huge and the cervical dilation to fit it is substantial. The NHS didn't offer local anaethesia for this when I had mine fitted. When I went to see the Mirena's inventor for a Fibroplant, he was horrified that I had been given one of his devices without anaethesia.

So, yeah men, carry on bitching about condoms being uncomfortable. We see you.

voldermorticia You;re right, I got them mixed up.
but as the anti abortion groups in NI think women should be forced to carry to term even in cases of rape and incest, I think the meaning of my comment still stands.

TransExclusionaryMRA This thread isn't about your personal situation and your comments are tone deaf.

MRA's ask ;'what rights do men have that women don't have' and all we hear is 'we have no idea how you people live.'
Women in Catholic countries are prevented from accessing contraception. Women in situations of DV are also prevented from accessing contraception.
So your comments about women not taking responsibility for contraception, on a thread about abortion rights, are out of order and look like an attempt to derail the thread by someone who has an axe to grind and no real concept of pregnancy issues.

I wasn't clear on the first quoted question: you don't have the right to walk away, which is what I meant with "defund your born child".

I have no time for the DUP or anything they stand for. However they are getting voted into power in each election. So I am more frustrated with my fellow NI citizens who continue to vote these racist dinosaurs into power and let them dictate to the population of NI what choices they can have.
I blame the people more than the DUP. The DUP always make their views known. People are voting for these views
I am not pro abortion, I am pro choice. I believe in God but I also believe God gave each human the ability of free choice (Adam and eve). So who do they think they are over riding Gods free choice ability. I don't see how they can use this argument. Until you walk in someone else's shoes you can not judge or cannot tell them what they need to do.
Rant over

@TransexclusionaryMRA: Should men have the right to say “I’m not ready at this point in my life for fatherhood” and have the right to walk away?

You have the right to use your body to prevent a baby from being born, but you don't have the right to defund your born child. The woman has the right to use her body to prevent a baby from being born, but she doesn't have the right to defund her born child. Your rights on this are equal to hers already. Biology means that she has more options, but it's her body involved in gestation and her risks are higher.

If you want more options for male birth control, fund research into and lobby for availability of Vasalgel and the "clean sheets pill" and get your fellow MRAs to do likewise. I, a woman, have already chipped in because I want men to have more options to veto a pregnancy and, in long-term relationships by mutual agreement, be able to relieve the woman of the contraceptive burden.

I would never have consented to sex and/or would have used a condom

I am incapable of sympathy for a man who is happy for a woman to shoulder the entire burden of birth control by not wearing a condom and then finds himself becoming a father. The Pill quadruples a woman's risk of a stroke and all female birth control options either have side effects or are "scream so loud that you can be heard in the waiting room" levels of painful to fit. It's beyond selfish to expect a woman to undergo those risks and side effects and then not even put a condom on.

Compulsory insurance for all men to insure against the situation where they might willingly have sex without considering the consequences. Ok then. It'd be interesting to see how you can sell that to your fellow man.

I am loath to talk about it in truth, but I am raising a child thanks to having been lied to about birth control, and rightly or wrongly it’s incredibly hard to hear I’m the devil of piece as I would never have consented to sex and/or would have used a condom if I had not been lied to.

It’s not OK to lie about birth control. Let’s get that straight.

At the same time, women the world over would Not rely on a man’s word that they had had say a vasectomy if they didn’t want children.

Women and men have I supposed different ‘control points’ when it comes to reproduction. For men, the point of control you have is sex itself - once that sperm has left the building so to speak, you have no control over where it goes. The problem is that men don’t want to give up sex, or have sex ‘reduced’ by using condoms. But that’s the only point of control they have, if they don’t want a child.

For women, the point of control should be any point from the ability to say no to sex up to the abortion limit.

It’s a sad fact that a colossal number of women are unable to say no to sex within relationships (you only have to go and read the relationships boards to see heartbreaking examples of this).
So then they have contraception - which unlike Male use of condoms carries risks - embolisms, cancer, hormonal contraception has a multitude of side effects.
And then the last line as it were is abortion. Nobody wants an abortion but the ability to have one is vital to women’s health and freedom.

So it’s not really an equivalent thing. I have been severely ill through two pregnancies and in both I could probably have died a hundred years ago. I would certainly have died during the birth of my first even a few years ago because it was only the upgrades in scanning tech that picked up the vascular issues that required a c section. Pregnancy and birth is risky - it’s the physically most risky thing most women will ever do.

So on this one, the circle doesn’t need squaring. Men and women’s needs here are not equivalent, and women’s take precedence.

You’re one of those mugs who accepted responsibility for their actions. Congratulations for doing what women have been doing for thousands of years, shall we throw you a parade. But you could walk away from all responsibilities , stop paying and stop contact. A pregnant woman can’t do the same unless she has an abortion.

Well I’m one of those mugs who not only has 50/50 shared care I still pay (non court mandated) child support. As hurt as my feelings were (and I can confirm emotional turmoil to the point of suicidal ideation), my child is the most innocent in this equation.

How would I square the circle? Probably some sort of insurance, much like we all need insurance to drive tonnes of hurtling metal on the nations roads if we all had insurance so in the event of an unplanned pregnancy resources would be made available, the woman could make the decision free from financial worries, men could walk were they so inclined. Fewer children living in poverty etc. Probably less of a drain on the public purse too. Idea needs work I accept that, but I think there is the germ of a good idea in there somewhere.

So 200,000 parents had to go ahead with a pregnancy and 18 years plus of child-rearing, against their will, because of somebody else's religious views. Fucking outrageous.

Found the X-case...
www.thejournal.ie/twenty-years-on-a-timeline-of-the-x-case-347359-Feb2012/

"I’m sure there is a way to square the circle re: men and women’s conflicting interests without coercing either."

Seriously, how?

If you have sex and you don't take precautions yourself to guarantee you won't create a pregnancy then you have to accept the small chance you might end up with a child. Birth control pills can fail even if taken correctly btw.

I'm surprised that you don't consider the approach of lots of other men, and arrange your life to avoid paying maintenance, and don't seek any contact. Job done in terms of avoiding parental responsibility.

It's not equivalent. Men don't have to carry a foetus for 9 months and then give birth to it. They don't have to potentially feel sick, or be sick for weeks on end. To have their body become unrecognisable to them. To have to either push a watermelon out of their arse or have their abdomen cut wide open, sometimes in emergency circumstances. To risk death from all sorts of complications, including pre eclampsia or sepsis. To sustain life changing injuries that they may never fully recover from. To potentially have emotional problems from the hormones coursing round their body. And only then still have to 'be responsible' for the child.

If you are going to potentially be going through any of the above, you have to have consented to sign up for it willingly. No one would ever force someone to go through any of the above in any other circumstance against their will.

It's not the same as the man's position. At all.

TransExclusionaryMRA
I think lying about birth control is awful & i dont want to comment on your personal situation at all but birth control can & does fail. Ultimately pregnancy is always a risk of having sex. Maybe men should take responsibility for contraception - if both partners use contraception the chances of pregnancy are tiny.
Again NOT a comment on your personal situation

would never have consented to sex and/or would have used a condom if I had not been lied to. hahaha you would have used a condom if you wanted to be more sure a baby wouldn’t be the result. Same as everyone women has to take responsibility for her fertility when when condoms are used. Including having an abortion when that fails.
Also no one is forcing you to raise a child. I have no idea of your circumstances but plenty men walk away from their children.