Poor kid

Thing is, as parents we can all celebrate decisions we've made that are rooted in our culture and our prejudices about what's right for our children, and celebrate those decisions, and those decisions can be absolutely wrong ones.

Some people believe that FGM is a positive practice which helps girls by promoting things like cleaniness, fertility, attractiveness, honour and all the rest of it. This view of FGM is a positive practice is clearly bullshit, and a parent who was featured in a tabloid talking about how they were planning to do what they saw as this positive, celebratory thing for their daughter would be arrested, and their daughter would be protected from the terrible harm that FGM would cause them.

I really, really struggle to see how this case in this thread is any different. This parent has taken a celebratory view of transition, despite the actual dangers posed to her child, and I don't know why her plan to medically damage her physically healthy child is not being investigated by the authorities rather than lauded in public.

@hackmum "
I think there are two kinds of parents. There are those who are deeply homophobic, possibly for religious reasons, and for whom the idea of a trans child is less awful than a gay child.
The other kind are people who just don't understand the implications....They don't understand the dangers of puberty blockers, or the likelihood of permanent sterility, or the probability that their child won't have any kind of a sex life."

That reads as a sweeping generalisation of parents of trans children. That's a pretty hostile position to take, that all parents who permit (for want of a better word) their child to present as trans are either homophobic or ignorant of the implications.

Note: I'm addressing the generalisation here.

I'm sure there are some cases of very homophobic and/or very stupid parenting in all sectors of society and I'm not going to get into any specific case e.g. the one in the OP.

‘You can live as if you are a girl, but that’s not the same as actually turning into one’ might be a reasonable middle ground, Sixnearlyseven?

I agree with you on the whole gender/ presentation thing it shouldn't matter with kids under teens. I also personally don't think under 18 s should have irreversible medical choices made by adults. Not so sure kids like this can t be ' told they can become the opposite sex' though. In the case of the child I know, and many others, it doesn't come from the parents treating them differently or telling them certain toys etc are for girls, it goes deeper even than the clothes they wear. The girl I know isn't even very girly these days, she has long hair but not much pink or dresses . They simply insist that they are a girl \ boy , what are parents supposed to do in this situation? Keep repeating ' you're not a girl' and ' you can decide when you're older' maybe. But parents with trans kids are usually worried about their child's mental health. It would be incredibly damaging to tell them you can never live as a girl. It's a complex issue, these kids can often have suicidal thoughts at a young age.

pulling a small girl off a climbing frame saying "you're not a boy").

Oh god, that’s sad.

I'm sure as adults people know that climbing trees isn't an activity just for boys or tomboys. But that's what they were told as children

I see parents telling small girls this now (not climbing trees, because we're in a city, but eg pulling a small girl off a climbing frame saying "you're not a boy").

There was even a study that showed that female babies are left to cry longer than male babies. We - all of us - really are indoctrinated in gender stereotypes to that degree.

this little girl is 100% genuine
I don’t think anyone’s suggesting that children such as the one featured in this article are lying or faking what they say they feel or believe about themselves. We just don’t agree that any of what is claimed as evidence that they are ‘genuine’ in their budding gender identity means that they should be medicalised or told that they can become the opposite sex.

To look at her, you would never know she is very feminine
And what does a child’s appearance have to do with whether they are male or female? Why does preferring a feminine presentation = this boy must be a girl?
(My answers: not a lot - most children are pretty androgynous until puberty, and it doesn’t).

But how do they know unless they Ha e somewhere along the line been told that all the stuff they like is for boys or girls.

People may think they don't treat the kid any different however it was featured on a documentary on tv. They got babies together swapped the clothes over and it affected what toys people tried to use to play with them and how they spoke to them.

Boys and girls are treated differently from birth by the people around them. If they weren't then there would be no concept of being different besides anatomy.

It really is stereotypes

My opinion on this has been altered by the fact that I know a child in this position. Male- female trans , nearly secondary age and has lived as a girl since around 7. The other children at school mainly accept her without question as a girl as its all they have ever known, although there has been some bullying, hope things go okay next year at the new school.
Until I knew her I would have said a child can t be trans, but this little girl is 100% genuine and it's all been driven by her, not her mum. Her mum is a very down to earth person, not an attention seeker, who has a few other children , a mix of girls and boys so it isn't a case of wanting a girl. I don't know if she will go down the blocker route. I don't think I would, but I've never been in this situation. To look at her, you would never know she is very feminine and has ' known' from toddlerhood.

Greydog That’s sad. And at least she is older than twelve. It’s a big surgery and irreversible but if you know your whole life will be affected until it’s done I can see the appeal. I think once a woman turns 18 she should be allowed one if she wants. So what if they regret it later? That’s not for the doctor to choose. I think they should go through counselling etc first but surely we should be able to make our own decisions about our bodies. Maybe even donate to those who need from those who don’t want? If womb transplants are indeed safe and they work.

The poor girl.

I wanted to know why LGBT meant the first thought the mother thought of was trans.

and yet this girl is being denied any real help - a very sad story. Maybe she should say she wants to be a boy, and people might listen - www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-44439735

Just to add, for a long, long time I was convinced I wanted to be a boy. I told myself this was because I wanted to stand up to pee. The reality? I was being sexually abused from the age of 8 and wanted to be a boy because then I wouldn’t be touched. I hated growing breasts as it was another part of me to use sexually. I took to trying to fuck up my hair and gained weight (I wanted to be fat so stole money to buy junk food) so that I would be unattractive to my abuser. None of it worked of course and I am perfectly happy being a woman and love that I’ve brought two wonderful girls into the world because I am a woman, I’m still overweight so that was a bad idea at the time. Point is, I reckon most who wanted to be the opposite sex either came from some sort of trauma, not necessarily sexual abuse or jealousy that boys were seen to be allowed more freedom. Not all obviously, but some.

I don’t understand how people can’t see that being trans is just enforcing stereotypes to the extreme. fucking idiots everywhere.

I'm sure as adults people know that climbing trees isn't an activity just for boys or tomboys. But that's what they were told as children

Some children were told by some adults. I remain wholly unconvinced that all or even a majority of adults were telling girls they were "tom boys" because they liked the things listed on here as proof of gender non conformity.

dolor

Yes, I certainly didnt tell people i was a tomboy...people told me i was a tomboy all the time

Even with hair down to my bum

Oops gender non-conforming.

Lass

My daughter was described as a "tomboy" recently by an older family member because she likes football.

The comments about bike types/climbing trees and short hair are the types of things that got you labeled as a tomboy when I was a child in the 70s and 80s.

I agree that it was /is ridiculous. The point is back then, if you were lucky you were labeled a tomboy and left to get on with.

However, now things that are considered gender conforming are sometimes being used to show why a child needs to transition.

Yes, Lass, that's the difference. In your upbringing those things weren't considered "for boys" and no one classified you as tomboy for liking them. I'm sure as adults people know that climbing trees isn't an activity just for boys or tomboys. But that's what they were told as children.

Not directly on point re wanting girls most of my friends don't have children. Of the few which do none of them wanted boys and in fact have only girls.

One couple has 2 boys and a girl- the girl being the third and final attempt at a girl.

I was asked if I was disappointed my son was a boy.

This awful story made me think of a friend of my daughter. She is now in her very early teens, but some years back when she was about 9 or 10 (so similar to Charlotte / Gabriel) she announced she wanted to be a boy: she cut her hair, wore boy's clothes ( although not at school where the uniform is very strict), came up with ideas for a new name and joined the football club. Pretty much all her friends just ignored it and let her get on with it. Her extremely sensible parents did the same and took the view that most children grow out it. A couple of years later that was exactly what happened and she happily and without fuss declared she was back to being a girl again.

At the time, my daughter, in an effort to understand, read some YA novels about trans kids and these did concern me. I don't know if any of these have ever been discussed on here (fairly new and delurked only today!), but the message in the one I saw was so overwhelmingly affirmative: breast binding and hormone suppressants were presented as if they were the most natural thing in the world. It also reinforced regressive gender stereotypes (including a weird period fetish) and some, frankly, creepy notions of teenage relationships. Fortunately, my daughter is a sensible soul and declared that an inability to throw a ball did not a girl make. I dread to think what some kids make of books like this however. It was very mainstream and seems to have been well reviewed.

It's great that Lass and others had childhoods where they were free to be feminine and not treated as lesser

That isn't what I was saying. I was referring to the determination of some posters to include in their lists of " things which prove I was a tomboy" things which no one would think in the least bit remarkable- like owning a bicycle or liking cycling or that holiest of holies- climbing trees.

I see that being interested in reading or being outside running about has now been added to the list.