How are gendered languages like French dealing with the trans agenda

Thanks, alexpolistigers - very interesting blog.

Bluescreen - try this one

Thanks for that, I will! I use the Babiniotis etymological dictionary for Greek if ever it is of interest!

alexpolistigers my McAfee tells me that link is unsafe.

As for French etymology, I recommend Alain Rey Dictionnaire Historique which is admittedly expensive and won't be in every library. But please feel free to PM me if there is a specific word.

@dolorsit Interested in etymology, you say?

It’s interesting that other languages are introducing or re-introducing feminine versions of words, whereas English is doing away with words such as actress or policewoman.

Very interesting thread-thanks for the TED link & film rec, looking forward to seeing these

Not yet Qumquat but I intend to watch it. Thanks for the recommendations.

I'm fascinated by the too dolorsit. Have you watched the TED talk I linked too earlier. I think that would be right up your street. I also really enjoyed 'Spell it Out' a book on the evolution of English spelling. Rosie Dent on twitter is also fascinating. I don't know any forums which specifically focus on comparing languages I'm afraid. I have a book on translation called 'Is that a fish in your ear?' which looks good but I haven't read it yet.

Only skimmed the latest posts so far but thank you all for the interesting discussion.

With regards to the French language, I do know they are very protective about the language.

About 25 years ago when I was studying business topics in France a lot of the business words or terms used were actually English words. There was a big push back against the anglicising of the French language, especially with the introduction of new technologies and the English words words used to name them.

I suspect if I were to revisit the topics I studied I wouldn't recognise a lot of the words as they may have been "Frenchified"

@LuMarie
Thanks for the compliment. I guess I would consider myself a thwarted linguist as my French is very poor. I am in awe of anyone who speak or write fluently in a foreign language.

I realise this is going quite off topic but can anyone recommend a forum or blog where they have these kind of philosophical discussions around the difference between languages.

I'm really interested in the etymology of words in the English language and would love to be able to compare to other languages.

Was that in reference to your post on 'The Class'? Not at all bluescreen happy to be corrected as I often talk about it.

(Sorry, I should have added pedant alert. And derail.)

Is French evolving?

www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2017/11/inclusive-writing-france-feminism/545048/

In laws in the school system does not a french person make

Sorry, not sure what this is supposed to mean - could you please clarify.

Where in “the sticks” where it isn’t common to have books at home as you describe it, has the matter of LGBT and minority protections, or french culture and civilisation, been a source of varied conversation?

Also unsure of what you are asking here - are you saying that I am making up my in-laws and their circle of friends?

IN French all nuns have gender so if your job is a teacher you are 'the (male ie Le) teacher regardless of your sex.

Although I have been wondering recently about the gay community, the local gay bar half the males are known as 'her'.

I highly recommend the film The Class which is a documentary on a class in a school in the Paris banlieu
YY. That film is indeed brilliant. Its French title is Entre Les Murs and its English subtitles are thoughtful and imaginative. It's not a documentary though, it's based on an autobiographically inspired novel by Laurent Cantet, who plays himself in the film. But it's true that arguments about how ordinary users change language are at the heart of it, though trans doesn't feature.

Good. Your tone from your first post has been incredibly patronising and now you're being just plain rude. The discussion will be vastly improved by your absence.

French citizenship requirement exam is European level B1. That’s “get by” french.

Your last sentence is actually a sentence in English. An understanding of culture and description of experience is not an extension to all. I was simply talking about the place of french language within french identity, plus responding to the questions about grammar. If you feel you can discuss the grammar better than I can, please do feel free.

I’m not wasting any more time with this!

The male presidence over the feminine has not always existed in French :

“As Raphaël Haddad, the founder of language consultancy Mots-Clés, points out, French used to be significantly more feminized.

“The rule preferring the masculine over the feminine didn’t always exist,” he explained. “It was imposed during the 17th century by grammaticians who wanted to use language to affirm male dominance over the feminine.”

“They also worked to disappear the feminine forms of prestigious professions, such as autrice [female author] or doctoresse [female doctor] in order to quash the growing influence of women in intellectual circles at the time.” The Académie doesn’t recognize either of those words.‘

Oooh that’s a really interesting question - thanks for the ted link

In laws in the school system does not a french person make.

In what ways, other than those small adjustments already mentioned, do you see the french language changing? Where in “the sticks” where it isn’t common to have books at home as you describe it, has the matter of LGBT and minority protections, or french culture and civilisation, been a source of varied conversation?

We can discuss in french if you prefer.

Sorry! Frustrated linguistics here getting excited! I used to live in Indonesia and if I recall correctly there are no separate pronouns for she and he anyway. Verbs don't decline they are always in the same form. Making plurals just involves saying the word twice, and you form the past tense by using the word yesterday and the future tense by using the word tomorrow. It's a brilliant language! It's a portmanteau language brought in to unify a very disparate country so hasn't evolved a complex grammar.

Local languages are much more complex grammatically, but are generally much more concerned with differentiating by status and age rather than sex. The word you might use for 'eat' would depend on a complex (to me) calculation of the relative age amd status of yourself and the person youre speaking to. There are also traditional names for the first, second third born etc in a family which don't vary according to sex.

Yes, I speak French properly - in fact I had to take a test in speaking French in order to get citizenship which I more than did well on. I spent a year in a French uni and had to take oral exams. Please don’t patronise me. Not all French people are highly intellectual and book obsessed and to say they all are is ludicrous - just as not all Americans are obese anti-intellectuals. Taking a generalisation and applying it to every member of a population is silly and wrong, and there really is no need to take a critique of such on overgeneralisation so personally is bizarre.

Yes languages evolve, but they are not completely upended by wiping out central grammatical concepts.

That wouldn’t be an evolution, it would be trying to recreate an entirely new language.

The default male idea in many languages and cultures is there of course. Even USA, “ all men are created equal “. We know where these notions come from as noted in previous post, we simply now interpret them to mean “people” where culture has evolved to allow the words innocuous meaning.

For trans attitudes in France, really I’ve seen and heard no arguing in any french press or discussion. The arguing notion seems to be originating from radicals, USA mostly. The impression is being given that it’s a huge battle for humankind, the reality is that it’s a matter of developing respect and understanding for a minority group.

There is also zero interest within french current discussion (not English language English speaking target audience) for changing the language in any drastic way, or for this subject.

And before I'm questioned on my knowledge of France and French education. I speak French and spend a lot of time there (in those self same banlieu). I have a French brother in law and two nieces in the French school system.

I don't know anything about attitudes to trans in French but I agree that French changes like every other language. Despite the best efforts of the Academy Francaise! I highly recommend the film The Class which is a documentary on a class in a school in the Paris banlieu (it's brilliant but utterly depressing). Safe to say the kids are not fans of the endless grammar lessons!