Spreading the idea that everyone has a gender identity

Yes alright Jamie thank you for your existential pragmatism.

I have secondary sexual characteristics which is why i am an observable female. It is nothing to do with my behaviour.

It is nothing to do with your behaviour.

But the fact that you are comfortable with those secondary sex characteristics and that they feel right for you, indicates that you have a gender identity that is not in conflict with your sex.

Because they are the same you can't experience them as different. To you - being a woman and feeling like you are a woman are exactly the same thing. It's therefore easy to think that you feel like a woman purely because you are one. Maybe you do. But you'll never know because you don't have gender dysphoria.

I don’t see what the point is in claiming to have inner core gender identities based on whether we all want dicks or not.

I can’t have a dick anymore than I can fly to the moon. So why waste time identifying with the notion? We’ll all be dead soon and have stuff to get done.

My point is that you are talking more generally about "cross gender identity". Which includes cross dressing fetishists as per Stonewall definition adopted by most policy makers.

Transvestic fetishism is listed in the DSM too. Again you are conflating "transgender" with "gender dysphoria" which isn't true.

Transvestic Fetishism has always been listed in the DSM. It can co-exist with AGP and gender dysphoria. Where there is AGP there is an increased likelihood of gender dysphoria. (As has been mentioned before by others).

It is Gender Identity Disorder that has been replaced with Gender Dysphoria. I guess to depathologise/ destigmatise cross sex gender identity where there is no distress.

They (TF and GD) are a differential diagnoses but can co-exist. Transgender isn't a medical term or a diagnosis.

I don’t have a gender identity.

Pre puberty and back in the 70’s pre puberty when my mum believed bikini tops were a waste of time when you had nothing to hide, i used to run about on holiday in my bikini bottoms and get sent by various adults to use the opposite toilets depending on their assumption of my sex based on appearance.

These days i feel pretty much the same. Dressed in jeans and a jumper i don’t particularly care whether people think i’m male, female, or alien.

I have secondary sexual characteristics which is why i am an observable female. It is nothing to do with my behaviour.

One of my dd’s has short hair. Depends on what she’s dressed in people assume her personality. It is not her innate gender, it is the gender others ascribe to her.

What?!

Sarah I don't think my use of 'gender identity' and 'gender' are the same as yours? Could be wrong. They are two different things to me.

I think you can have a gender identity of female but be expressing a quite masculine gender. Eg a 'butch lesbian' that has short hair, no makeup, wears mens clothes sometimes (I have met some that do), and not conform to any stereotypes of 'female gender role' at all but they still have a female gender identity.

So yes I agree that a large part of gender is social construction but that's not the same as core gender identity.

I've heard some professionals describe it as an onion. the outer layer is the most superficial aspects of one's gender identity, makeup, hair style, clothes etc.

The next layer in is your social role and how you want to be related to on a day to day basis. Next layer in is secondary sex characteristics like needing to have, or surgically remove breasts. After that the inner layer is primary sex characteristics, what genitalia feel right for you. I can't remember if that is the core layer or if the core layer is inside that one - 'core gender identity'.

Not sure if I remembered that quite right but that was the general gist. It might be seen as out of date now but I think it's a useful model. Whatever our identity is in terms of that onion model I also think gender identity development is a type of imprinting and once you have imprinted your gender identity it is generally permanent (that's my theory equivalent to yours, which I am also fairly convinced is fact!).

I also believe (there is some evidence) that the development of that gender identity is influenced by genetics, biology, the reality of one's sexed body, prenatal hormones, environment and culture. Some people can develop an identity in conflict with that sexed body.

I think it's the two outermost layers in that onion that 'gender' lies that you describe - gender expression, stereotypes about appearance and gender roles. Historically linked to the inner layers of course - but feminism seeks to change that.

I agree with your last paragraph - having gender non conforming role models and for all of us to be gender critical so we are not shackled by societal norms/ patriarchy is a good thing.

It's a text book from a while ago (Abnormal Psychology) and the term has been replaced by Gender Dysphoria now. Instead of cross gender identity being seen as a type of pathology, it is the dysphoria that it causes that is seen as the disorder.

Transvestic fetishism is listed in the DSM too. Again you are conflating "transgender" with "gender dysphoria" which isn't true.

"Huge shitstorm of gibberish"? I think I love you, Picasso

@SarahCarer it is unscientific to say that gender identity isn't a thing. It is an observable phenomenon
How is it observable, except by asking people? That's not observation.

Excellent post metro - I have been through similar stages myself.

Ruthless self awareness is hard, but liberating.

To have an identity about your gender you must first be able to define your gender.

Gender means group.
A group has shared characteristics.
Else it is not a group.

The only reason gender identity is referenced in psychology or medicine is because it is conflated with sex, which does have an objective definition.

Apply logic to this and it all evaporates.

Gender group: female
Gender group: male

what are their characteristics? How do they differ?

It also makes it clear that having a gender identity at odds with your sexed body is a disorder, not a normal variance.

Why are mental health professionals describing the disorder? Don't you disapprove of that?

It's a text book from a while ago (Abnormal Psychology) and the term has been replaced by Gender Dysphoria now. Instead of cross gender identity being seen as a type of pathology, it is the dysphoria that it causes that is seen as the disorder. I was just using it to illustrate that gender identity as a concept has been used in psychology and psychiatry for a long time.

I have very mixed feelings about that because surely if you have some sort of condition that means you can't function well without prescription medication and surgery, then that means you have some sort of disorder? And it's framing it as a lifestyle choice. OTOH it does depathologise the whole spectrum of gender nonconformity and cross sex identity and expression. I think I tend towards the former at the moment though.

No one is an "identity" anything. Gender Identity is a US cultural phenomenon being exported around the world. The purpose of this export is to demobilise legal "sex" and create a worldwide legal framework for cross dressing males to be legally recognised as male and/or female.

Transsexuals knew what they were before Gender Identity appeared over the horizon like a huge shitstorm of gibberish.

My gender resistance is called "radical feminism". It gives me a toolkit to analyse the world and my own reactions to it.

For example, I hated cooking when my mother tried to teach me cooking but I was interested when my ex-bf taught me. On reflection, I realised that internalised misogyny was at the root of my initial hatred: I had dismissed cooking as "women's work" and therefore beneath a professional woman in a male-dominated job like myself, and my ex-bf validated it as a thing men do and therefore not beneath me. Further reflection had me realise that my "I'm not like other women, I'm more like a man, and what men do is OK for me to do but what women do is not" attitude was pure misogyny, turned outwards in a denigration of other women as somehow less than me and inwards in denying myself permission to do wifework survival work unless a man validated it first.

It was a startling and deeply unpleasant realisation. Without an understanding of internalised misogyny, I would have carried on trying to be some kind of honorary man, and failing because women only get honorary man status when it suits men.

I don't "identify as" vegetarian, I am. I do the thing... I invite you to go to a religious worship "identifying as" yet DO that which is opposite to the beliefs/actions and see how accepted you are..... I don't believe that religion, vegetarianism, etc are innate things. They are the things we are socialized or become do to our innate characteristics. We alll make choiced based on those I guess core values and those are later expressed through the things we do. Gender is not about doing man or woman it's about social control.

I am Jane.
I feel have the same identity as that person over there who I know nothing of.
I will give our identities the same name, to show that we are the same.
-is this possible? No. You cannot know another person's feelings or identity. The label is meaningless.

I am Jane.
That person over there used a word to describe themselves.
They have a clear idea of the exact meaning attached to the word.
I will use the same word, yet with an opposite meaning to name my own identity.
We now both have the same identity.
-no. Using the same word with different meanings attached does not confer similarity. Communication is about conveying meaning and mutual understanding. A parrot can use human words but has no comprehension of their meaning.

There is no way for a group (gender means group) to possess a shared identity other than by means of agreeing the definition and characteristics of that group identity and proving that each member possesses them. And even them members may not 'identify as' or 'feel' or even 'declare' their identity. They will simply be identified (recognised) by others to fit the right description.

and thanks to superloudpoppingaction for explaining too, in the post before.

'I don't think of myself as a either a man or a woman' - please don't put words in my mouth.

I am sorry for that, I didn't mean to put words in your mouth. I meant to set out what I understood and how I would express it myself, so that you could clarify where your understanding and/or your use of language would be different from mine.

Thanks to Bowlofbabelfish, bettydumonde and Datun for explaining.

'I don't think of myself as a either a man or a woman' - please don't put words in my mouth. It's vile. For me, sex is about biology. Therefore, due to my awareness of reality, I am a woman. It isn't about how I think of myself. it's about having xx chromosomes and 3 children. Did you mean to sound like such a rude concern troll?

Why on earth is my identity being called into question? I am an adult human female. Therefore due to my sex I am a woman. I am vulnerable to pregnancy. I menstruate. That is not an identity. It is biology. My identity is as above. Please respect it. Sheesh.

Sorry I do not understand - you have called yourself a woman. As soon as you say "I am a ..." or "as an ..." isn't that your identity? In my understanding that means you do have a gender identity (a woman) Whether that corresponds to your physical body or social role I have no clue, but you think you're a woman and surely that's all it takes to have a gender identity?

I am a woman - that’s a descriptor of my sex. It’s not a subjective opinion, or how I feel. It’s a physical, measurable, objective scientific fact. I am a woman - an adult human female, where female is ‘of the class that bear live young and produce ova.’ It’s not an identity, it’s a reality. I’m six months pregnant, there is not a person in the world who can tell me I’m not a woman.

A gender identity - whatever that actually is, I’ve still never had a good explanation - is a matter of feeling and opinion. I’ve never felt I ‘identify’ as a woman. I just am one. I’ve never had anyone be able to explain to me how a woman is supposed to think or feel.

Society certainly has a lot to say on how they think a woman should talk, behave and act. But that’s all crap I largely reject. It’s not innate in me, it’s not a physical measurable part of me. I do t have an identity. Perhaps some people feel they do like some people feel they have a soul. However that’s a faith based position and belief defies proof.

In short - I AM a woman
I have no gender identity because I don’t believe that gender is innate and I reject most of the crap that society pins on women.

Wrong trousers - gender isn’t sex!

Woman is a descriptor of biological sex.

I am also a woman without a gender identity. I’m a woman (two bio kids and women’s cancer related genetics clinic appointments to prove it) but I don’t have any sense of gender that isn’t really biological fact.

I’m a gender atheist. I simply do not believe that gender identity is a thing. Obviously I accept that other people believe it and I am happy to respect those beliefs, but faith and fact are not interchangeable (nor are sex and gender).

I note who is being pulled into posting and losing their temper...