Spreading the idea that everyone has a gender identity

I don’t like my adult female body, actually.
and i can’t get rid of the hormones. I could probably have a mastectomy, hysterectomy and laser hair removal, but i still wouldn’t be a prepubescent child, or even look much like one.

Well no, you wouldn't. With respect it sounds like there could be a few issues that might be worth exploring? I mean as in therapy - I hope it's not rude to suggest that and I'm sure you've thought of it already. Or tried it already - sometimes it takes a few goes to find the right therapist/ counsellor. Not liking your body that much enough to want to change it is not a great place to be is it. So hope you can find a resolution. Or in the short term here's some anyway

Yes, that makes a great deal of sense.

I also don't know exactly what causes anorexia but I'm confident there would be fewer cases if women were not objectified.

In some cases it is autism Jamie. But not all obviously.

Just because women havent attempted to change sex, does not mean we are by any means happy woth our bodies or with the gender roles society enforces on us.

I understand that Hyppolyta but that also doesn't mean you would be happier with a deeper voice broken by testosterone and a beard. And being recognised every day as a man. That is how trans men report feeling - the need to be seen and recognised as a man, in order to be seen as themselves. That's very different to what you're describing.

Sorry to hear you feel the need for a breast reduction. Two of my friends have had that on the nhs, fortunately for them they met the criteria (2 different boroughs but within same county). If it's causing you disability or affecting your health, then don't know if you can make use of Personal Health Budgets, or IFR/ approach your CCG and look at their 'Procedures of Limited Clinical Value' (horrible term for something so important), or try different GP, appeal decision. I'm sure you've thought of all that though.

Yes, it is called femininity because it is primarily associated with females (and the teapot is absolutely nail on the head).

Just wondering what is going on to go from man who likes femininity to trans and body dysphoria. It seems as if there is a leap there which is outside of most people’s frame of reference, while feminine gay man is understood and expected.

In most cases therapy is considerably more expensive than drugs of course

Jamie I don't deny that but there is a proportionality to it isn't there.

Secondly lots of therapy for people who are disastrously ill at ease with their bodies, many of whom are autistic and suffering with proprieception issues alongside fear of change. Their body feels literally less connected to their brain

Please stop telling other posters what they feel and what they are comfortable with!

I'm not literally telling posters what they feel. I was using 'you' more in the general sense and as a way of applying the concept described within the literature. I'm sure you would still find gender identity in today's books - I was using that to show how it's used and that it has been around for decades.

If specific individuals believe they don't have a gender identity I'm totally fine with that! I'm not stupid enough think I can argue someone into thinking they have something that they believe they don't.

@Supermatch Firstly - dismantle gender. This is what I have done with my own child

I didn’t think you were implying it was innate Sarah.

I just meant that feminine women tend to have feminine gay male friends, and so people learning about and being drawn to masculinity and femininity are socialised with an awareness of feminine men existing.

No it's fine. And I agree. I think we are fleshing out a lot for lurkers and readers here and there are some fantastic posts in this thread. To those who are reading who have an internal sense of gender - I understand. I've been there. I don't deny your experience but what you were born with was the urge to be social, to learn from copying others, to respond to their expectations without even knowing you were doing it. To see yourself through the eyes of others and to incorporate their expectations of you into your expectation of yourself. Into your 'identity'. And to those reading who are bewildered because others seem to have this sense of gender identity and you don't: Believe me you are better off. You have seen through what others don't. It may have to do with the way you responded to social cues as a toddler. As a result you have perhaps had more choice in the development of your own personality than others.

Children, teens and adults need help to come to terms with their body, not encouragement to believe their body is wrong and should be altered in such a way they become sterile,

Right, and now all you have to do is find what that help is going to look like, how it could be delivered, by whom and what the evidence is for it. Meanwhile psychiatrists and psychologists have tried for decades to do that in the past. It has never worked. But go ahead and find it - I'm sure the NHS would take it up in a snap. Given how uncomfortable the average GP is with the whole process I'm sure they would welcome it.

Sarah - I think the butch lesbian is expressing an aspect of her internal gender identity yes. But 'if you remove stereotypes' there is still a sense of feeling that she is male or female - or that one's body feels like it is the right (or wrong) sex.

I think it can include some of those things you're describing (not sure where we're going with teapots mind). We're really deconstructing identity into a myriad of different pieces now - feelings, thoughts, behaviours. But I still think underneath all of that is a core identity - if you've imprinted more than just femininity, more than just copying your mother. If you have ended up identifying with 'femaleness' not just 'femininity' to the point where 'female bodied' is how you feel you should be then yes I think that is some of what I'm describing.

I can well imagine how someone who identifies with femininity and has a male body would feel horrendous about their move towards a male body which is associated with masculinity

I think that describes part of the experiences of a lot of trans women, yes. But 'identifying with femininity' is a fairly superficial aspect of it - gay men can experience that growing up too. It's when that identification goes as far secondary and primary sex characteristics that it can become severe gender dysphoria.

What are you thinking there?

*SarahCarer

Yes ALittleBitofVitriol I agree with you. The "who I was meant to be" bit was the delusion. It was real in my mind, particularly as a tween*

Thank you, sorry if I came across as aggressive. I just really think that we need to explicitly parse the thought progressions here, especially, as you say, children and tweens literally don't have the cognitive structures to see through it.

Yes ALittleBitofVitriol that's right. I had the delusion.

Yes reallyanotherone I'm not surprised. Many gc feminists have never felt this way.

Argh, also forgot to add in:

When you say 'who you were meant to be'
Think about what that implies! We are back to a belief system that there can be a preordained intent about who someone is meant to be that can theoretically be different or separate from who they literally are as they physically exist in time and space.

Yes ALittleBitofVitriol I agree with you. The "who I was meant to be" bit was the delusion. It was real in my mind, particularly as a tween.

Sarah i don’t recognise any of your post.

I certainly didn’t welcome puberty. Femininity feels alien to me- nails, clothes, hair and make up, gossipy girl friends are not what i enjoy.

The few times i have performed femininity and worn a dress and make up i have felt like a fraud in fancy dress all day. Utter relief to get home, shower and put my jeans back on- then i feel like myself...

You may not be quite clear the point I'm making Jamie. That internal sense of gender comes from external influence combined with the internal drive to be social creatures, including those elements which are influenced by sexuality. IT IS NOT INNATE. Not in any of us. As I have got older I have thankfully been liberated and understand that I do not need the role I so aspired to. There are other ways to be and live.

SarahCarer
I was with you until this: known this is who you are meant to be deep down inside
That is not objective, measurable or observable. How do you know? What does deep down inside mean? You are insinuating dualism - a part of us that is the real 'us' separate from our physical bodies. You are free to believe that of course, but it's just that - belief.

The rest of what you describe I would suggest is a good description of gendered socialisation in our patriarchal society. Our brains are plastic and are literally shaped by our experiences - especially as infants!

It's therefore easy to think that you feel like a woman purely because you are one.

This is the sort of thing that chaps my hide. You probably do not even know how insulting you are.
Millions of women all over the world feel like people. They are pissed because they are not treated like people.

What you says makes a lot of sense Sarah, but feminine gay men often have close friendships with those kind of women.