Spreading the idea that everyone has a gender identity

Disagreeing with someone in a discussion isn't about consent, it's having a different point of view. You don't need consent to disagree with someone on an internet forum. You disagree with me so you're gaslighting me - something you do a lot to people.

Your posts are beginning to feel like a personal attack.

reallyanother

I just don’t get why the insistance that adopting the societal indications turns you into that gender. Because it doesn’t.

Some people that change their hormones and physical bodies will say they already feel like they are that gender first. They change their physical characteristics (as much as is possible) so that they physically see themselves and are seen by others as the gender they already feel/ know they are. Yes I know that's the standard trans ideology..

Yes i have issues with my body. But i accept no amount of counselling or surgery will change the physicality i was born with.

I would think it must be hard to build up a good sense of self esteem if you feel like you can't accept the physicality you were born with? Or can't change how you feel. I think if counselling worked though you wouldn't have to change your physicality because you might perceive yourself differently.

People can find it hard to imagine themselves in a different place when they're on the other side of it. It can take years and it can be quite difficult to take a close look into yourself but you could find someone that could safely support you to do that. Who knows what's on the other side of that - it might be a better place? Anyway enough of me telling you what you could do.

I read this book about five years ago.

Blew my mind. I believe it

www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00DCCRBIW/ref=oh_aui_d_detailpage_o08_?psc=1&tag=mumsnetforum-21&ie=UTF8

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Bergner goes behind the scenes of some of the most groundbreaking experiments on sexuality today and confronts us with controversial, sometimes uncomfortable findings. Incendiary, profoundly insightful, and brilliantly illuminating, What Do Women Want? will change the conversation about women and sex, and is sure to spark dynamic discussion for years to come.

My gender identity is radical feminist.

That is I analyse gender as being a sexist and profoundly misogynistic mechanism of social control.

Gender is quite simply the oppression of girls and women. Gender is male supremacism.

One might as well say "my sense of my place within male supremacism" when one employs the obfuscating and deeply sexist term "gender identity".

It's a load of bollocks that suits the status quo down to the ground because whilst individuals are narcissisticly trying to find themselves via an ephemeral inward looking "gender identity" they aren't outwardly rebelling against constrictive and oppressive sexual politics.

People who find consent hilarious are not safe to be around.

Sarah - yes I can see the bigger picture and I understand that gender is the tool that oppresses women all around the world. Also yes of course it's a source of toxic masculinity.

Most aspects of identity in a large part develop through social interaction I'm not claiming you can separate gender identity development from socialisation. I agree it is also affected by sexuality - there is a link between different sexualities and gendered behaviour from childhood through to adulthood.

But I can't see how you're connecting that to someone who feels they have the wrong secondary or primary sex characteristics. You have women that have lived as out, gender non conforming lesbians for 30 or 40 years coming to a realisation that they are men - and want to have a deep voice and facial hair. How do you explain the mechanism behind that?

I will donate to Fair Play. Nic Williams is superbly on point and she has the research and stats to support her arguments. I back her 100 per cent.

I read a book that said:
Aristotle, History of Animals, Book IX: "Wherefore women are more compassionate and more readily made to weep, more jealous and querulous, founder of the railing, and more contentious. The female also is more subject to depression of spirits and despair than the male. She is also more shameless and false, more readily deceived, and more mindful of injury, more watchful, more idle, and on the whole less excitable than the male. On the contrary, the male is more ready to help, and, as it has been said, braver than the female; and even in malaria, if the sepia is struck with a trident, the male comes to help the female, but the female makes her escape if the male is struck."

This is used to this day by misogynists to support misogyny.

People who refuse to take no for an answer

I laugh. I find you funny now.

(Used to be mildly insulting, but now just funny).

You’re not listening. We are real people. We do not have gender identities. We are not flipping onions.

I am listening. You don't have a gender identity. The book I was quoting from says everyone does. It's what I was taught. You're telling me different. I get it.

There are a number of people who say they don't have a gender identity. I don't think that invalidates the concept of gender dysphoria in general or that which is clinically observed and treated by others in practice.

Late to the party to say that I don't have a gender identity either.

SupermatchGame.

Feminism is the struggle for girls and women to be liberated from a worldwide, unfair, harmful and totally unjustified subjugation.

The mechanism via which we are subjugated is gender.

Genuine sex dysphoria is undoubtedly a distressing thing to those who experience it. But I absolutely do not believe for a second that transgenderism is a humane answer to that distress. Because transgender ideology is counter to material reality and it throws children, women, homosexuals, lesbians and the non compliant with the regressive rules of sexual politics under the bus in order to bolster a profound untruth.

Humans cannot change their reproductive sex. They should IMO be allowed to express themselves as they see fit and be accepted for doing so. We shouldn't have to lie about who we are in order to relieve the distress that the strict institutionalized social order of male supremacism (AKA gender) generates in so many of us.

We are not wrong, our bodies are not wrong. The social order is wrong.

And transgenderism does nothing to challenge or change that social order. Quite the opposite.

SMG, you quoted someone’s post and then immediately addressed them in the second person. I call bullshit that you were speaking generally.

Anyway, this isn’t a general, or hypothetical debate. You’re not listening. We are real people. We do not have gender identities. We are not flipping onions.

Perhaps we should take out bus adverts saying “some people are agenderist*, get over it”.

*sub gender atheist, gender critical or other commonly agreed term

I also don't know exactly what causes anorexia but I'm confident there would be fewer cases if women were not objectified.

From my understanding it is the sub conscious way of trying to stop growing up...

And here we are.

Or at least superficially change sex. E.g.. alter breasts/facial hair

@reallyanitherone It isn't that easy though because society applies gendered expectations based on sex and identity develops socially. So to adopt the gender you identify with you would need to change sex and insist that others truly believe you have done so....

Why is there such a phobia around feminine men in our society? Why is it so deeply entrenched? Why do men display this so much more than women?

Gender - sex in that second para

i am asking you to open your eyes up to the bigger picture. Transgender is part of gender. Transgender is gender. Gender develops through social interaction and is affected by sexuality. You always revert to a narrow focus on trans identities as if they can be treated as wholly separate from the whole picture. Do you understand that gender is the tool that oppresses women all around the world? Do you understand that gender is the source of toxic masculinity? Male suicide rates? Trans is not an isolated phenomenon. And there is a social solution

So. Gender is a social construct. Agreed. You can change gender at any time you want to. Just adopt the social expectation of your preferred gender.

To me, that’s logical, fine, and i have no issue with.

I just don’t get why the insistance that adopting the societal indications turns you into that gender. Because it doesn’t. Much the same as me behaving like an 11 year old prepubescent doesn’t make me one.

Yes i have issues with my body. But i accept no amount of counselling or surgery will change the physicality i was born with.

I think you don't know, because you don't listen. If you listened, you'd know.

This is the sort of thing that chaps my hide. You probably do not even know how insulting you are.

No I don't. Good job we've got you around to keep me informed though eh.

Millions of women all over the world feel like people. They are pissed because they are not treated like people.

That's an equally important issue and one feminism is addressing. It's not the same as gender dysphoria.

SupermatchGame i am asking you to open your eyes up to the bigger picture. Transgender is part of gender. Transgender is gender. Gender develops through social interaction and is affected by sexuality. You always revert to a narrow focus on trans identities as if they can be treated as wholly separate from the whole picture. Do you understand that gender is the tool that oppresses women all around the world? Do you understand that gender is the source of toxic masculinity? Male suicide rates? Trans is not an isolated phenomenon. And there is a social solution.