Spreading the idea that everyone has a gender identity

I don't know if we are actually disagreeing or if we just see different nuance in certain words.

IMO sex roles are but that does not make them as for me inner means coming from within whereas internalized means the incorporation of outside values (AKA socialization).

I'm not saying that people do not feel that their socialization is part of them and how they feel about themselves I'm saying that it originates in an outside force and influence upon us.

Which is why I think the use of "identity" is unhelpful as in these times of postmodernist identity politics there is a fashion for thinking that one's identity is an individual inner force without acknowledging that we exist in a strict social order which classes us according to our sexed bodies and which socializes us from before birth to submit to and comply with our classification and the sex role, caste and status assigned to our reproductive sex.

Actually I guess narcissism probably isn't innate. But also we all have individual experiences of socialisation; culturally dependent.

And it is also individual because the extent to which we absorb the socialisation depends on a range of innately different factors; ASD, sexuality, narcissism (which I'm not using in a derogatory way). These all affect the extent to which we absorb socialisation

It is inner though. Just not innate. It becomes inner and people experience it as inner. In my world I have more success in winning people round by acknowledging their perception of their own lived experience.

I think the term "gender identity" is yet another obfuscation on the part of genderists.

Because if something is socialized it is neither individual nor inner. Nor can it in any way alter the material reality of reproductive sex.

If one's "gender identity" is simply socialization of sex roles by a sexist social order, then one would do better to actually call it that. Which, BTW is what feminist analysis does.

@beachcomber. Yes. Socialisation causes gender identity.

No different from that. Because some of us have actively and unconsciously incorporated traits associated with femininity into our personalities. Therefore gender has altered our brains.

SarahCarer but what you have described above is simply socialization.

But if women did hate puberty and felt uncomfortable with their body, you don't want them to talk about it publicly? Even though it's quite a common response, and nearly everyone who posts about it goes on to say that they became reconciled as puberty progressed. The only appropriate experience that is to be shared publicly is one where girls rejoiced at puberty and were thrilled to gain hips and breasts? Those who love being feminine are the only ones whose views are welcome and helpful?

Judith Butler wasn't claiming that at all - that is very reductive. I wasn't sneering but I was being patronising and quite rude. Mysogyny isn't a hatred of femininity. Femininity upholds mysogyny.

Can I just say how much I loathe that expression "performing femininity". So smug and patronising.

Oh and don't bother lecturing me that it is just a useful tool to describe how society brainwashes women devised by Judith Butler. The sneering with which it is used reeks from the page.

Not to mention the fact that of course it dismisses the many postive aspects of femininity. And you say I suffer from "internalised misogyny".

OldCrone I am referring to the type of feminist whose outlook on life is as negative as I see on here. What I mean by putting it into girls heads is by the barrage of negativity- the expect the worse because that is what will happen. Posts about how much they hated their bodies as girls or the dismissive post from I think Sarah about treating a first period as a right of passage.

Lass I too went on a journey from performed femininity to successful confident graduate to rising star in a sector which was at the time dominated by men to a 'successful' woman at the top of my field in a leading role. Once I realised I needed to model myself on the men instead of the women (very early on), and work twice as hard as the men I was competing with, it was very simple. In my twenties I would have said others could do what I had done if they believed in themselves and worked hard enough. I was so ignorant of my advantages. Now I know it is my job to challenge the status quo for others, to challenge mysogyny when I see it whether it affects me or not. I am driving that internalized mysogyny out of the corners of my own mind. And yet sometimes I still find it lurking there. I am grateful to others who pull me up on it.

What I meant about "defeatism " is in my view the difference between society actually saying to girls and women can"t do this/ must do that and feminists telling girls "society says you cant do this"

I don't know what sort of feminists you have been talking to, but I, for one, would never say that to a girl. It's more likely that a girl would say to me 'I can't do that' because someone has told her that, and my reply would be that she could do anything she wants to. I just can't imagine a feminist putting ideas into girls' heads that society says they shouldn't do things because they're girls. It's the absolute antithesis of feminism.

Gosh, you sound just like my husband who has to be handheld through critical thinking, and if I'm completely honest, a bit like me not that long ago.

You have to identify the problem before you can fix it. It looks like you're only at the beginning of that journey, if you have started it at all.

Lass can you explain what you mean by this? I have come across other people saying feminism is about being a victim, but I don't understand how standing up for women's rights can be viewed as defeatist or being a victim

I never mentioned "victim"

What I meant about "defeatism " is in my view the difference between society actually saying to girls and women can"t do this/ must do that and feminists telling girls "society says you cant do this"

I find it all so negative. I can't remember which thread it is but for example the one with the whole list of things which apparently society tells girls they can't do.

Or any time periods are mentioned- the determination some posters have about how shameful society thinks they are.

Lass, you appear to have some internalised misogyny there. Feminists are victims? Completely the opposite

And bingo - is your next card the handmaiden one or the MRA one?

Feminism is not at all about being a victim. It's about taking control

Is it? Quite a lot of it seems to be about identifying things you (general you) don"t like, complaining about them and doing little about ithem because- "patriarchy".
"Wife- work"being one. So much of that is making a rod for your own back.

The Ann Robinson school of feminism.

Feminism is not at all about being a victim. It's about taking control.

Lass, you appear to have some internalised misogyny there. Feminists are victims? Completely the opposite.

You remind me of my friend Lass. I think her position boils down to 'but I'm alright so don't bore me'' though. She is a success so she wouldn't even discuss any of the changes that need to be made to make things equal.

As far as I'm concerned the only thing I haven't colluded with is the defeatist attitude of a certain style of feminism.

Lass can you explain what you mean by this? I have come across other people saying feminism is about being a victim, but I don't understand how standing up for women's rights can be viewed as defeatist or being a victim. It seems to me to be the opposite of that.

Other women weren't told about negatives to do with being female, and decided to take on a defeatist attitude. Other women experienced negative socialisation from a young age, which many struggle to overcome even though they are aware of it consciously. You were in the position not to have had any negative socialisation or to be particularly resistant to any that you did encounter. And to be totally able to ignore/resist wider society's negative attitudes towards women.

What advice do you have, Lass, for women who grew up with and have internalised negative messages about being female? Is it as simple as deciding one day not to care about these things?

What is more it explains why we make choices that harm and collude in our own oppression

I'm not sure what "it" is as there is no link.

I mention Daimbars and also Lass too because this forum is mostly populated by people who don't perform their own gender

If a head teacher of a girl's only school wanted someone to speak to her girls I would be an excellent example of a successful woman. Confident, outspoken, self-assured, successful in what was when I started, a male dominated career and also a mother.

As far as I'm concerned the only thing I haven't colluded with is the defeatist attitude of a certain style of feminism.

I am so glad I wasn't told when I was a teenager about 99% of what is posted on here about how miserable it is being female.

Hmm. I don't perform my sex. It just is. I don't perform any gender because I don't have a gender identity. It's not subversive. It's just me being myself.

I mention Daimbars and also Lass too because this forum is mostly populated by people who don't perform their own gender. There are just a few voices who do. But irl I find it the other way around.

This is very well written about in psychology and social science. What is more it explains why we make choices that harm and collude in our own oppression. Like Daimbars does. The only bit which us faith based is the idea that the gender was there at birth. It cannot have been, since it develops socially.

No different from that. Because some of us have actively and unconsciously incorporated traits associated with femininity into our personalities. Therefore gender has altered our brains.