Spreading the idea that everyone has a gender identity

Also I do believe in souls, and yet appreciate that it's a religious belief, that it's not something I can reasonably go around ordering others to believe in too, and that atheists are not somehow invalidating my identity or wishing me dead by not agreeing with me. Funny, that.

Exactly! And, presumably, when I say something like there is no such thing as a soul, it doesn't occur to you to accuse me of saying I wish death to all people who believe in souls.

I don't think I can have a gender identity because I don't know what a gender identity could be. I await a decent definition I can actually use. My 'internal sense of myself as female' is based on my internal ability to notice my female sexed body, not on my personality. I appreciate some people are happier with their bodies than others, but a) pretty upsetting teenage years of eating disorders and self-harm here and b) I've just had two miscarriage in eight weeks so am really not in the mood to hear about how happy I must be with my uterus.

Also I do believe in souls, and yet appreciate that it's a religious belief, that it's not something I can reasonably go around ordering others to believe in too, and that atheists are not somehow invalidating my identity or wishing me dead by not agreeing with me. Funny, that.

I’m going with ‘gender atheist’ as my personal descriptor. I’m not really a rad fem (although I seem to edge closer to it everyday!) and this sums up my overall feelings. People who believe in gender identity are exactly the same to me as people who have religious beliefs. I will respect you in person as long as) you don’t try and convert me and b) you don’t lobby for laws that reflect your beliefs (although I support laws that protect you from being discriminated against for your beliefs) and c) you respect that my right to disbelieve your faith.

Hence why I made a distinction between ‘agender’ and ‘agenderist’

Kettle they would say we were 'agender' which falls under the trans umbrella

I wonder where not having an gender identity lies on the gender identity spectrum? I mean surely if everything is individually felt and defined, then it can't be questioned if we say we don't have one. Unless that's a form of identity in itself?

Deep.

I've been told today that everyone has a gender identity and that I must be trans because I don't have one. This was by a fairly mundane trans person on Twitter (ie not a raging frother). This person could not grasp that I don't share their understanding of gender. It's so frustrating.

Psychologists don't assert that gender is innate, they can't, they have no basis for asserting that, so they most certainly cannot assert that people have an innate gender gender identity with any basis.

All they can say is that there are children and adults who experience dysphoria and connect more with how the perceive the opposite sex than how they perceive their own. That's it.

Kardashian

Under age discrimination protections you would be able to complain if you were ridiculed for your behaviour. You couldn’t complain if a neutral statement was made about your age though.

@Beachcomber excellent point about the age identity. If I am 40 but identify as 20 as I like going out clubbing and going to house parties and enjoy dressing ‘young’ having a ‘young’ hairstyle and ‘young’ makeup, does it mean I can change my legal ID as it’s how I ‘feel’ inside.
Or is it fine to say I can dress how I want, do whatever activities I want, have cosmetic surgery to change my appearance if it makes me happier but the reality is I will still be 40 no matter how I ‘identify’ inside and I shouldn’t expect other people to go along with the pretence that I am actually 20 as that’s how I identify.

Lang I'm not sure because the email didn't tell me why I was deleted or which guideline I broke but I'm pretty sure I wasn't deleted for using the word "transgenderism". I'm fairly certain it was what I said transgenderism is which got me deleted.

Perhaps HQ interpreted my comment as being about the act of transitioning which I guess could be deleted for being hurtful to MNers who have transitioned or have a family member who has.

But to my mind "transgenderism" is an ideology in the same way that feminism is. And I think we should be able to robustly criticize ideologies. It may annoy or upset people who adhere to the ideology but I don't think that is a valid justification for disallowing negative comments about ideologies as long as the language used is not beyond the pale (slurs, etc).

If it's 'I'm a girl because I like girly things and feel like a girl inside' then yes that is what I understand to be gender identity

That's not gender identity. That's social conditioning across a narrow range of stereotypes.

TheWrongTrousers

You're saying that famous men who have transitioned are benefitting from fame privilege? Not male privilege?

Rubbish.

No one had ever heard of these famous transactivists until they transitioned and started setting themselves up as experts on the trans ideology and feminism.

Show me the famous females who have transitioned, who were (and are) journalists, lawyers, athletes and broadcasters, who have been advocates for extreme pornography, and claimed they are male homosexuals. If it's by dint of being famous - or trans.

What is a disorder?

A condition which is comorbid with suicidal ideation is surely a disorder?

Feminists know that gender is toxic particularly for women but also for men. So what’s the correlation?

SupermatchGame
'Also unequivocal is the fact that others will agree with the answer given'

If the answer to 'are you a boy or a girl' is based on your primary and secondary sexual characteristics I can't see how it relates to gender identity.

If it's 'I'm a girl because I like girly things and feel like a girl inside' then yes that is what I understand to be gender identity.

Gender identity is so unreal, it is impossible to observe or even describe in a meaningful way.

Besides that, isn't it rather transphobic to call it a mental health disorder? Why are mental health professionals describing the disorder? Don't you disapprove of that?

It's an aspect of psychology that is faddish and will hopefully head the way of eugenics. It's incredibly alienating to me as an autistic lesbian woman with no gender identity

Accepted by the science of psychology... like how white people are the most attractive you mean?

Gender identity is real and accepted by most mental health professionals. It is accepted by the science of psychology.

I've just received an email from HQ letting me know I've been deleted on this thread for a comment I made about transgenderism (as in the movement / ideology). I'm rather unclear as to which actual guideline the comment broke to be frank.

Wait, what?

I call it gender identity theory or gender identity ideology and I tend to refer to adherents as genderists. I intend all these terms to refer to this particular world view. Hardliners of this world view I tend to refer to as extremist transactivists.

MNHQ - are these terms allowed, or not?

Can we be clear?

Gender is a ridiculously imprecise term. You can project anything on to it unless you precisely define it. If I feel my identity is a rational, humanist, sceptic - is that a gender? Male-rational, sceptical, Female humanist/caring. However there's no evidence of a male female split in these concepts. Anyone who claims a gender identity must be prepared to a)define, give a clearer description of facets of that internal identity
b)evidence that it is a binary characteristic not shared by humans in general.

Who benefits from reifying gender?

Misogynists?
Patriarchs?
MRAs?
A certain group of people who cannot be named?

Who is disadvantaged?
Women and girls

Well going on that particular deletion (don't know if it counted as a strike but perhaps not as the email didn't mention anything about that) if I keep posting on the issue in my usual style, I won't last long.

I wonder if I would have been deleted for saying the same thing about an ideology / movement other than transgenderism. I suspect not.

Perhaps I should post the same comment about feminism and see if it gets deleted.

I'd have a printout of the rules covered in highlighted bits and red pen scribbles constantly to hand and a sense of impending doom...

Bad luck, Saturday mods, hope your weekend improves