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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Can human beings change sex?*

260 replies

Terfulike · 15/06/2018 20:49

Serious answers only please.
*With acknowledgement to Bowl, who has raised this so often. Apologies if this is repeating a thread from the past (?): in any case, maybe it's time for another thread with this title.

Please, no wordy arguments about how sex can be changed by legal instrument around the world, just answer the question posed.

OP posts:
katand2kits · 16/06/2018 08:25

No. Even if you change your body and how your sex is recorded in legal documents, you cannot actually change your biological sex.

Bloodmagic · 16/06/2018 08:24

Even if you don't have testes or ovaries, you still either have or don't have an SRY gene which defines your sex.

Bloodmagic · 16/06/2018 08:22

Here's a complete answer.

No

Because sex is defined as "either of the two main categories (male and female) into which humans and most other living things are divided on the basis of their reproductive functions."

Male is defined as "of or denoting the sex that produces gametes, especially spermatozoa, with which a female may be fertilized or inseminated to produce offspring."

Female is defined as "of or denoting the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs, distinguished biologically by the production of gametes (ova) which can be fertilized by male gametes."

So sperm producers are male and ova producers are female. But some people are sterile, so for people who produce neither sperm nor ova, what does it mean to be 'of the sex' of one or the other? Lets take a look at biology. Ova only come from ovaries. Testes never produce ova. Sperm only come from testes, ova never produce sperm. No one has ever had a gonad that produced both sperm and ova, nor one of each. No one has ever changed from being a sperm producer to an ova producer or vice versa.

So we can say if you have ovaries you are female, if you have testes you are male. That's definitely in the same reproductive category. But what about people who, for whatever reason might be born with neither? It's extremely rare but lets look at how humans develop.

In the uterus, two gametes (sperm and ovum) come together to make an embryo. In the beginning that embryo has undifferentiated gonads, which could be either testes or ovaries. If the person has an SRY gene (almost always on the Y chromosome) those gonads will differentiate into testes. If they do not, the gonads will differentiate into ovaries.

At its most fundamental level, sex is determined by the presence or absence of the SRY gene, which directly controls differentiation of the gonads, which in turn determines which part of the reproductive act the person could hypothetically take part in (sperm producer or ovum producer) and USUALLY results in specific hormonal production and sexual characteristics that we are visibly able to recognize in a person as male or female.

As presence or absence of the SRY gene is a binary characteristic there are only two sexes, no one is both, no one is neither, and no one can change from one to the other. Sex is encoded in every cell of your body and is a fundamental part of your body's operating system.

So anyone with XY, XXY, XXXY or XXmale (where the SRY gene is present on the X chromosome) genotypes is male. Their gonads will differentiate into testes. They MAY produce sperm. They will usually be phenotypically male. They will never have ovaries or produce ovum. This includes men with CAIS and other intersex conditions.

Anyone with X, XX, or XXX genotypes is female. Their gonads will differentiate into ovaries. They MAY produce ovum. They will usually be phenotypically female. They will never have testes or produce sperm. This includes women with CAH and other intersex conditions.

Some sexual characteristics can be changed (breasts or penis can be removed) but sex itself can't ever be changed.

MnerXX · 16/06/2018 00:50

No

JuzzaL · 16/06/2018 00:50

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

WhatTheWatersShowedMe · 16/06/2018 00:46

No.

hellokittymania · 16/06/2018 00:43

Oh, OK, thank you for explaining that better 99.

Amalfimamma · 16/06/2018 00:43

@hellokittymania

It's a rare genetic disorder but those boys are biologically male at birth who have a missing enzyme.

It's nothing to do with changing sex, being trans gender, dysmorphia etc.

egginacup · 16/06/2018 00:42

Juzzal obviously these people are ridiculous. And a very small minority. In the same way that the recent story about men who believed they had the ‘right’ to sleep with women- incels I think they called themselves, was ridiculous. But I don’t think these men represent the views of all men, in the same way as I don’t think these ‘cotton ceiling’ theorists represent all trans people.

AngryAttackKittens · 16/06/2018 00:38

Is this that thing where people think that a woman is an incomplete man thing again? It's tedious.

NineNine · 16/06/2018 00:37

Those aren’t little girls turning into boys though are they? They are male children with a genetic disorder which means their genitals don’t develop until puberty.

It says the babies are born with no testes and what ‘seems to be’ a vagina. Which reads to me as no penis = not a boy = girl. The babies clearly don’t have vaginas either, but somehow no vagina =/= not a girl.

JuzzaL · 16/06/2018 00:31

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

AtreidesFreeWoman · 16/06/2018 00:30

Well I've asked on chat on the ask the next poster a question...

hellokittymania · 16/06/2018 00:24

Here, I found it. Does anyone know anything about this?

www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2016/03/12/the-astonishing-village-where-little-girls-turn-into-boys-aged-1/

hellokittymania · 16/06/2018 00:22

How's anyone heard of the little girls in the Dominican republic who grow genitalia, I forget what the actual word for them is, I will go back and find the article. This made me think of that. I think it's only specific to that area.

quixote9 · 16/06/2018 00:21

Biologically: no.

(So that relates to sport too, since the biological constraints are what matter there.)

Socially? Socially we can make any kind of pig's breakfast of it all that we want. It is the group as a whole though. Self-ID is never a thing except suddenly now for trans people.

egginacup · 16/06/2018 00:20

Maryz when you say ‘ordinary women’ I also feel like you really mean ‘ordinary middle class women’. I’m starting to come to the conclusion that this is a class issue- women living in poverty have more pressing things to worry about than whether their daughter is going to Brownies with a boy.

Maryz · 16/06/2018 00:14

It's happening Britney

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3271449-In-Connecticut-two-teenage-boys-who-identify-as-girls-have-come-1st-and-2nd-in-the-girls-100m-sprint

That's in the US, but already sports are divided in UK schools by "gender" not "sex"

As for Girlguides - safeguarding has gone out the window.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3253884-girlguiding-an-update

NorthernJugni · 16/06/2018 00:10

The answer is I don't know. I've read research that says prolonged hormonal treatment means that male physical advantages aren't retained, but I have a trans woman friend who tells me that isnt the case. There doesnt seem to be agreement on what is accurate. And if you believe that there is no difference between trans woman and non-trans women, then trans women would just be stronger faster women. I don't think that but many do.

As for refuges, I think that the decision should lie with them in deciding who can work there and who can access their services. A trans woman could have been through abuse at the hands of a male too. But obviously I see the concerns too. I just dont know.

itsbritneybiatch · 16/06/2018 00:10

*Angryattackittens
*
I feel like that too!

egginacup · 16/06/2018 00:09

Maryz I am an ordinary woman with school going daughters.

I have one daughter in Brownies and one in Guides. In all honesty, if there was a child who had been born male but identified as female, who had the courage to want to join Brownies/Guides I would encourage my daughters to accept them and would have no problem with them going on residentials with them.

I think cases of prisoners should be dealt with on an individual basis.

I do have an issue with sports, due to the obvious differences in physical strength. I think it needs to be monitored closely and I don’t claim to know what the answer is.

Have there actually been any cases of trans people causing issues in women’s refuges? I believe that vulnerable women have the right to be cared for appropriately in women only spaces of course. However, trans women may also be abused by partners and also may need the help of a refuge. So where should they go? Again, it surely should be dealt with on a case by case basis.

I am a teacher and have seen the increase in students struggling with gender issues, particularly identifying as non-binary. This worries me as I don’t like the idea of ‘female traits’ and ‘male traits’ and worry about girls thinking that just because they are not ‘typically girly’ (as they see it) they must not be a girl. That said, if they choose to be called by a different name or a different pronoun I respect that is their right and would never dream of being so insulting as calling them by their original name/ gender pronoun deliberately. For them that would be devastating and cruel, and it annoys me to see that happening on these boards.

I do continually tell my daughters that there are not ‘boys things’ and ‘girls things’ , that they can be anything they want to be.

More pressing feminist issues to me: the gender pay gap, abortion rights in Ireland, the low conviction rates for rape and media coverage of recent cases, womens’ rights to education around the world, period poverty around the world, the fact that our prime minister met with the crown prince of Saudi Arabia despite their appalling women’s rights record.

Why don’t I start a thread on these issues? Because I think there are more effective ways of bringing about change, such as being a role model to my daughters, trying my best to educate students in school about these issues when I get the chance, signing petitions... and because I’m pretty busy as a full time working single parent and usually come on mumsnet for some light relief! But somehow tonight this thread pushed my buttons.

itsbritneybiatch · 16/06/2018 00:08

Maryz

I'm not well read on this as I've stated.

Is this happening or is it something that could happen?

AtreidesFreeWoman · 16/06/2018 00:07

No

BarrackerBarmer · 16/06/2018 00:07

Nope

Maryz · 15/06/2018 23:58

Inclucing sport, Jugni?

Male people retain their skeletal size and bone mass, their heart muscle, their weight, and much of their strength (boosted by years of testosterone) after transition.

What about refuges/counselling groups?

Can a man who has been a "woman" for a couple of years really understand a woman who is traumatised by a bad relationship, who has been beaten and raped and belittled and seen her children destroyed? Should she not be allowed to talk to a woman?

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