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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

TRA response to Mumsnet new pro trans guidelines

343 replies

Southfields · 15/06/2018 10:27

As many on here predicted, they are STILL not satisfied. They believe the new guidelines from Justine are transphobic.

So, MN feminists don't like the new guidelines and nor do the TRA.

Where do we go from here?

By transwoman Natasha Kennedy:

Wednesday, 13 June 2018

False equivalence on stilts: Mumsnet's new censorship.

Today Mumsnet have come out with some badly transphobic guidelines which can only be regarded ill-considered at the most generous, profoundly transphobic at worst. They have said they are going to ban transphobia, terms like "TIM" ("Trans-identified male") and the like, although transphobes on Mumsnet are apparently already trying to find ways of producing new abusive and transphobic terms in order to get round this. How many hundreds of mods Mumsnet are going to employ to monitor this is unclear.

However for false equivalence they have decided ban the term "cis-". This is not only ridiculous, it is profoundly transphobic and reflects the institutional transphobia endemic at Mumsnet. "Cis-" as a prefix, they claim is offensive to "feminists", swallowing the rhetoric that "cis-" is somehow a form of abuse (in fact it is only a form of abuse if you are a transphobic bigot). Mumsnet are exposing their bias here and it isn't pretty.

The prefix "cis-" was first used in relation to gender by Dr Ernst Burchard, a cisgender doctor - and one of the earliest campaigners for gay rights - in "Lexikon des Gesamten Sexuallebens" published in German in 1914 and the term "cisgender" was first used by a cis male academic called Sigusch in 1998. It was created in order to provide a counterbalance to "trans-" so that people didn't have to say "non-trans" or "normal" when referring to someone who is cisgender. "Cis-" is effectively like the prefix "hetero-" in heterosexual. We don't talk about people who are not gay men or lesbians as "normal" people, so why should be have to do just that for trans people on Mumsnet?

In effect Mumsnet have censored trans people from using their discussion boards because we can no longer name people who are cisgender except in a way that Others us, pathologizes us or marks us out as somehow "abnormal" or not valid. In effect this is an Orwellian kind of censorship at a lexicon level (like "doubleplusgood") from a media platform that has complained noisily about Orwellian "censorship" when trans people called them out on the abuse we have been receiving on Mumsnet.

So it doesn't just reveal Mumsnet's institutional transphobia but their profound hypocrisy also. They cried foul to that other transphobic media platform, The Times, about being held to account for the transphobia in their forums yet have now banned some elements of the very behaviour they said trans people were threatening "censorship" by complaining about. In other words by their own standards of a few weeks ago they now are "censoring" themselves. This is not merely hypocritical, it is pathetic.

They are effectively excluding discussion by trans people and our allies by denying us legitimate terminology; banning a term that is, by the way, in the Oxford English Dictionary. Without being able to use a term like "cisgender" they are effectively making it impossible for trans people to engage in any meaningful debate in important areas. Their attempt to appear even-handed has ended up being oppressive and effectively taking the side of the oppressor. False equivalence is the name of the game, something trans people are very familiar with in the media, particularly broadcast media. And something the CEO of Mumsnet should be very familiar with since her partner is a senior commissioning editor in Channel 4, which recently produced an abusive and demeaning "debate" about my right to exist.

Mumsnet have got it badly wrong, they have demonstrated that

they are institutionally transphobic and in Desmond Tutu's terms are not even taking the side of the oppressor by being neutral, they are taking the side of the oppressor, period. Their motivation for this...? The only conclusion I can come up with is that they want to maintain their abusive transphobic user-base while avoiding complaints of abuse to advertisers; screenshots of transphobic abuse next to adverts make advertisers nervous. It is worth noting that trans people have been complaining about this kind of transphobic abuse on their site for literally years and they have arrogantly ignored us and brushed us off.

But the implications of Mumsnet's censorship go much further into dangerous territory...

As an academic the last place I would ever want go to discuss my work is of course Mumsnet, but now even if I wanted to I would be unable to since my most recent peer-reviewed publications, and some soon to come not only use terms with the prefix "cis-" ("Cultural cisgenderism" and "Cis-mythologization") throughout but they use them in the title. In effect my research is now banned from Mumsnet. No great loss from my point of view but should we should regard this as the modern equivalent of book-burning?

When the Nazis started to burn

books in Berlin University in 1933, among the first into the flames were those of Magnus Hirschfeld, a researcher into trans people. The comparison is too obvious not to make. Indeed I am not the only academic some of whose work it is now prohibited to discuss on Mumsnet; Gavi Ansara's and Peter Hegarty's award-winning research publication "Cisgenderism in psychology: pathologising and misgendering children from 1999 to 2008" (which originally coined the term "cisgenderism") is also banned under Mumsnet's new regime as are works by both transgender and cisgender academics including; Dr Ruth Pearce, Prof Dean Spade, Dr Julia Serano, Prof Rogers Brubaker, Prof Susan Stryker, Dr Jemma Tosh, Dr Diane Ehrensaft, Asst Prof Z Nicolazzo, Asst Prof Tobias Raun, Prof Sara Ahmed, Dr Meg-John Barker, CN Lester... I could go on and on...

To go from complaining to mainstream media about "censorship" to implementing a thoroughly Orwellian censorship regime of its own is quite a feat of hypocrisy even by Mumsnet's own pitiful standards, and something trans people are used to as pretty much the default setting of transphobes. However banning a term that is the equivalent of "heterosexual-" is not only bizarre but profoundly oppressive, the fact that it prevents the discussion of work by a wide range of academics is, in practical terms no great loss, Mumsnet is really just a cesspit of hate and ignorance. The symbolism of it however is very significant indeed.

uncommon-scents.blogspot.com/2018/06/false-equivalence-on-stilts-mumsnets.html

OP posts:
Bespin · 17/06/2018 22:20

I'm just someone who is debating this topic with people you seem angry and emotional and it might get you banded and if you want to put your points across you will not be able to do it if you continue I hope you are ok.

CosmicCanary · 17/06/2018 22:18

Jolly we know you are right.
Transwomen are of course male otherwise they would not be transwomen.
That said MN new rules state we cannot say that and to be a poster here we have to play by their rules no matter how ridiculous.
Rather than give MNHQ the power if you no longer want to be a poster here leave by your own hand not theirs.

Or take 5 come back and try and work with those who want MN to see the bigger picture.

Jollygrandma · 17/06/2018 22:14

Who are Rfustheyyawnreindeer and Bespin?

Rufustheyawningreindeer · 17/06/2018 22:11

Absolutely what bespin said

Stay Thanks

Bespin · 17/06/2018 22:10

Jolly have a break come back and discuss things don't get. Yourself banded if you are passionate about this you can make your points and defend your position if that's what you need to do

Jollygrandma · 17/06/2018 22:07

Just think of how many mums will leave mumsnet in disgust when they understand that your new policies are really about the advertising revenue you're concerned you'll loose, and NOT about the safety of little girls. Hmmm. Just imagine how many women will leave--and spread the word. And maybe establish a safe space where mothers and grandmothers can openly talk about trans being men.

Rufustheyawningreindeer · 17/06/2018 22:04

I dont want you banned jolly

At all

But you are going to be deleted ...a number of times

And that would be a shame if the board has already lost your friend and you seem to be determined to be deleted as well

Jollygrandma · 17/06/2018 22:02

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Bespin · 17/06/2018 22:01

I am sorry that you were assaulted by someone and that it as had this effect on you. Not everyone that is trans wishes to assault people but like everyone else bad people are trans so it will happen and I am Truely sorry that it happened to you. I can understand where your worries would. Come from given that but I am not a threat to you or anyone else.

Rufustheyawningreindeer · 17/06/2018 21:55

jolly

You are a bit yelly...and bearing in mind mumsnets new rules are very very new it does seem as if you are standing there

' go on then....come at me!!!!'

Which is an unusual position to take

Pratchet · 17/06/2018 21:51

Shouting

Pratchet · 17/06/2018 21:51

They're really aggressive and I don't like them at all

Jollygrandma · 17/06/2018 21:50

Nonsense. Everytime a man in a dress enters a female-only space, he definitely NOT massively helpful. I was physically assaulted by a 6' tall man in a dress in a public toilet at a movie theater 15 years ago. I was an adult. 'Transgenderism' was even a thing back then. What will/has happened to young girls and adult females who are now more and more threatened by this nonsense that trans are women? How many more have been (or are being) assaulted by men in dresses? Or skirts? Or makeup? Is it the lost advertising monies that concerns mumsnet more than the safety of little girls?

BertrandRussell · 17/06/2018 21:40

Just a gentle warning. And possibly a suggestion that your contributions may not be massively helpful.......

Jollygrandma · 17/06/2018 21:35

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

BertrandRussell · 17/06/2018 21:32

Keep going, jolly- then you can join her.cc

Jollygrandma · 17/06/2018 21:15

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

MipMipMip · 17/06/2018 20:13

Or, far more likely, they would not. And so they don't understand and their silence is taken for consent. When if they did understand they would think it's wrong. Or right. But you can't know because they don't understand.

Have you ever worked somewhere with lots of industry specific acronyms or phrases? I did. And I would talk to someone about something connected that they would understand, that needed no specialist knowledge. But because they didn't know the acronyms i unconciously slipped into they had no idea what I was talking about.

Clarity is important. You might even get more supporters by being clear but you won't get any (real informed) supporters without giving them access with clear jargon free language.

And I know you don't want anyone to support you who doesn't understand what they are supporting and believes that it is simply bigotry causing concerns, do you?

pombear · 17/06/2018 19:39

It must be crap for the people who fall into this category, who desparately (or aggressively/sexually) want to be something else, but you can only signify you want to/think you're something else if you firstly highlight you're not the something you want to be.

Word salad.

But that's the only way you can signify.

Otherwise you just 'are' the thing you want to be. And then you can't shout at the other people who are the 'thing' you want to be for excluding you, because you aren't the 'thing' you want to be.

Eg:

You: I'm a Dragon.

Dragons (women): Erm, no, your're not.

You: I AM! You can't say I'm not a Dragon. You don't understand my experience, you have no idea whether I feel like/have always been a Dragon.

Dragons (women): Erm, OK, but you can't do all the things Dragons do, or the shit we experience cos we're dragons.

You: That's exclusionary, that's murderous, as I will be hurt because you say I'm not a Dragon.

Dragons (women): But nothing about your biolology demonstrates
you're a Dragon.

You: You don't understand, I'm a Dragon because I say I'm a Dragon.

Dragons (women): Er, OK.

You: Now I want everything that comes with being a Dragon (apart from the crap stuff) and you will recognise me as a Dragon.

Dragons (women): Er OK. So, this is some of the dragon stuff we do and have to talk about....

You: NO. THAT's NOT OK, COS WE CAN'T DO THAT/SAY THAT COS WE DON'T HAVE TRADITIONAL 'DRAGON' STUFF.

Dragons (women): Er, OK, so you may not be Dragons.

You: NO, THAT MEANS YOU MUST TALK ABOUT ANYTHING OTHER THAN DRAGONS COS .....US/ME/ME/MEEEEEE!

(it's Sunday, I'm pissed off, and this may not make sense!)

Bespin · 17/06/2018 19:21

Well if people don't know what is ment by a trans woman then they can read some of the books I have already suggested and learn if they want too

MipMipMip · 17/06/2018 19:15

I'm sorry, the typos are winning today. Confused

MipMipMip · 17/06/2018 19:14

And if someone didn't understand what a transwoman is (and I have seen a lot of comments from people saying they thought a transwoman was a female who was transitioning to male) they will not understand why women are uncomfortable. It is not clear to someone new to the debate and they should not be excluded.

MipMipMip · 17/06/2018 19:12

No, i d6ont. Thr important part in that was actuslly the pronoun, he. That was a single sentance so it was easy to understand. Do a paragraph or two and it gets very confusing.

Again, it is not being done to be unkor hurt anyone's feeling, it is being done for clarity. I find it very worrying that anyone thinks we should make arguments about anything less clear.

Still too close to #NoDebate for my taste.

Bespin · 17/06/2018 19:07

You can write that statement saying Sara a trans woman she made other women uncomfortable and that also gets the point across. You are. Trying to make don't you think

MipMipMip · 17/06/2018 18:53

Slightly off topic but if there was transition leave do you think it would reduce discrimination against womem being hired? On the basis that women get refused in case they need maternity leave, would this reduce if there was an equivalent make version? Basically making everyone high risk. I suspect the answer will be no as the number of transitioned will be too low for employers to consider it when hiring but it's a thought.

Sorry for the derail!

Bespin face to face I would use preferred pronouns and smile and not say I can tell. As others have said, this isnt about the individual but the class. But another reason for me is here I am discussing things where for clarity we need to be accurate. If I start saying "Sara tried to go in a women's shelter and she made people uncomfortable" no one will understand the problem. If I say "Dave now called Sara went in a women's shelter and he made people uncomfortable" it is a lot clearer. I am unlikely to be having this discussion in real life so what pronouns to use hasn't come up. If I do then I will be clear in whatever way I need to be.

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