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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Before you rush off to a private chat/forum and before you post in Feminism chat.......

227 replies

MrsFogi · 15/06/2018 10:04

I've seen a number of threads about leaving, moving to other private chat forums and also threads that are about trans/feminist issues but linked to more general issues. May I just ask everyone who wants to "do their bit" to think through the consequences of jumping ship.

The only way that anything will change is if people are talking about the potential issues of self-identification and their impact on women's rights. Talking on private forums is great and a way to release frustrations but is no substitute for firstly continuing to speak in open forums such as MN (albeit with the risk of getting banned for breaching one of the new "rules" but that is not life or job threatening) so that the issue continues to come to the attention of a wider group of people and, secondly speaking to people in RL about the issues. I would also argue that given the recent media coverage not many people will be risking their job by talking about these issues in RL if they do so in a polite way.

It is important to debate the issues on open platforms such as MN and in RL to continue to hone arguments, to get more people thinking about the issues (whatever conclusion they come to) and because there is always a risk of echo-chamber mentality if opposing voices are not present and responded to.

The trans activists are trying to silence women's voices. By moving onto private chats and forums women will have handed them victory and, more importantly, those on those closed forums will be wasting their time talking only to others who have already peak-transed. That may feel great but does not constitute an active defence of women's rights.

We need to keep talking to everyone and anyone (particularly those not yet aware of the issues) and ideally not on the feminist boards - get out there and weave the issues into your posts on other issues elsewhere on mn and everywhere else both online and in RL. The only reason we have any traction (and the reason for MN getting scared and introducing these rules) is because the media are now talking about this - now is the time to ride the wave an talk to everyone and anyone. Now is not the time to be retreating to the back rooms and talking among ourselves.

If you are moving to a closed chat - do it because you need to do so in order to organise real life action (in the way ManFriday is doing) otherwise please, please use your voices on here and elsewhere to continue to raise awareness of the issues.

To this end, when you start a new thread please consider if it could, by any stretch of the imagination, be posted somewhere other than Feminist Chat. Most on Feminism Chat already know about the issues, we need to be talking to people who are not yet aware or who have "hidden" the topic.

p.s. I am a woman who has grave concerns about the impact of proposed changes to the law relating to transgender rights will significantly erode women's rights. I am object to being accused of transphobia for asking questions about the reforms and I do not agree that we need to subvert our language or understanding of biology in order to respect the rights of people who wish to decide on their gender-identity. I urge all women to visit the Fair Play for Women website to read about the issues and form their own views. I am grateful to MN for providing a platform where the issues can be discussed albeit in a heavily-moderataed manner (in contrast to most other social media platforms which have banned or silenced open debate).

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CuriousaboutSamphire · 15/06/2018 15:31

daim I get confused by you both agreeing and disagreeing with many points made. Cognitive dissonance abounds as you and I (and many others) bounce off each other!

I am never certain if you are annoyed or in agreement when you post short posts without context! Confused Smile

dolorsit · 15/06/2018 15:28

dolorsit I'm not saying 'let's be nice' I'm saying 'let's be smart and respectful'

That's still policing - I could just as easily said "don't be angry" Please note @daimbars I wasn't saying you shouldn't say these type of things. I was explaining the dynamic that I think makes feminists more resistant to this type of policing.

For example there are smarter ways of saying you are uncomfortable with the proposed changes to the GRC process without suggesting the majority of trans women are perverted fetishists. You might not think it's transphobic but it sure as hell looks like it to some people, including the advertisers.

I agree. However, sticking with your example, I have seen "I'm worried about predatory men taking advantage of self I.d." get accused of transphobia. There are people here who are twisting or interpreting any post that is not 100% in line with the latest trans ideology as transphobic. Unfortunately, let's be smart/respectful goes down in the crossfire.

As an aside.

In the interest of good communication I would like to recommend that is probably best to use "one" rather than "you" when writing a hypothetical inflammatory post in response to an individual. It could be perceived as attributing that view to your recipient.

Personally I think the best way is to lead by example. I try to write the types of posts I like to read (so obviously long-winded). I've found that if I spend all my time on a thread trying to encourage "respectful" discourse rather than engaging in the subject, people tend to get a bit suspicious that I'm not interested and only trying to derail.

daimbars · 15/06/2018 15:25

@CuriousaboutSamphire she's a high profile GC feminist writing for a national newspaper I thought it would be pretty cool if she's on this thread.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 15/06/2018 15:21

Actually MrsFogi you are right. A year ago I needed every one of those reiterations. I had a lot of thinking to do to work out why my longstanding attitude of acceptance was no longer feeling right!

If they had not been there I would have had a far more protracted time of thinking, wondering, excusercising!

CuriousaboutSamphire · 15/06/2018 15:19

And? So what?

And no, I wasn't.

daimbars · 15/06/2018 15:17

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

onedayiwillmissthis · 15/06/2018 14:42

Great post ChocEggNoThanks

thatdamnwoman · 15/06/2018 14:39

ChocEggNoThanks: great post. Thank you for saying it for me.

GardenGeek · 15/06/2018 14:38

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

JuzzaL · 15/06/2018 14:36

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

RubyShooFan · 15/06/2018 14:32

MrsFogi oh yes! This board has taught me all about strawman arguments and gaslighting techniques among many other things Smile

Bowlofbabelfish · 15/06/2018 14:31

Oh I know ruby

It’s worth pointing it out though. Every time, eh ? ;)

MrsFogi · 15/06/2018 14:29

Whilst I'm sure it is tedious for the wonderful posters that need to repeat themselves on many a thread I must admit that I do find it helpful when rhetorical devices and other derailing tactics are explained on MN. I find that some of the techniques explained on here are ones I encounter in RL (not only in a feminist and/or self-id debate context) and it is very helpful to have had my eyes opened to them.

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RubyShooFan · 15/06/2018 14:22

I know that bowl Smile

YogaDrone · 15/06/2018 14:19

Wonderful post ChocEggNoThanks Flowers

I do get frustrated with the trolls posting ridiculous pseudo-science and trying, sometimes succeeding, in taking threads totally off tangent. For this reason, and the fact that I may be banned as I refuse to mis-sex someone, I would like to be part of a separate forum where issues and ideology can be debated without the goady fuckers making it into a deletion fest.

Personally I reject "CIS" entirely as unnecessary, but banning words is playing directly into the TRA's hands. Restricting free speech is something I associate with authoritarian regimes, not parenting websites!

CuriousaboutSamphire · 15/06/2018 14:16

So Bowl I should join the "ODFOD we see what you did there" style responses, every time?

Mmm! OK! As I am heartily sick of repeating much of what ChocEgg posted there!

GoldenBuns · 15/06/2018 14:16

ChocEgg - brilliant.

Bowlofbabelfish · 15/06/2018 14:14

Who is saying that all transwoman are dangerous fetishists?

No one is. It’s a rhetorical device used as a technique for argument. You start off with a statement you lay down as true and that statement is extreme, so your opponent must spend time explaining that actually no they don’t spend their days kicking puppies into mine shafts... it details a bit, and it forces the opponent onto the back foot.

It works particularly well on women because we are socialised to be nice, so when someone starts an argument with ‘honestly the amount of people I see on here kicking puppies’ we all rush in to clarify that actually no, we’d not ever kick a puppy.

Etc.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 15/06/2018 14:13

Amazing post, ChocEgg. Have bookmarked it, though I've not yet actually worked out how to access my now extensive collection of bookmarks. So many brilliant, articulate posters here.

Ireneony · 15/06/2018 14:13

choceggnothanks summarises it all perfectly for me and is the majority opinion I've seen here. This thread is turning out to be excellent - intelligent calm reasoned discussion. I wish the world could see this and put all this 'mumsnet is a cesspit of hate' stuff to rest.

RubyShooFan · 15/06/2018 14:11

Who is saying that all transwoman are dangerous fetishists? Confused I thought most people’s concern was that Ill thought out legislation was going to be abused by perverts?

Most people on this board are very sympathetic to the likes of Miranda/Kristina/Curry/Pidgionpodge ie all the old style transexxuals. We’re well aware this is very unpleasant for them trying to go about their lives now that their movement has been hijacked by MRA’s. That’s not the fault of women ‘being mean’ though, that’s the fault of misogynistic, homophobic, arsehole men!

Agerbilatemycardigan · 15/06/2018 14:10

Most people I talk to are on several forums including MN. I also think it's important to keep discourse going and to inform others about what's happening.

If it weren't for MN I would've been in the dark about the issue of Self ID, and I'm grateful to them for that.

Just feel a bit sad that a forum that was so pro woman has had to bow to the bullying of the trans cult.

Bowlofbabelfish · 15/06/2018 14:06

Thanks juzza

LangCleg · 15/06/2018 14:05

But Daimbars the DSM makes it clear that AGP and transvestite paraphilias are linked to gender dysphoria in males. Women very rarely have paraphilias.

Yes. AGP can solidify over the course of years and hence lead to dysphoria. This is why the age of transition varies so much between males and females. ROGD in adolescence dominates the females. AGP in adulthood/middle age dominates the males.

MrsFogi · 15/06/2018 14:03

What a wonderful post @ChocEggNoThanks. This is why we need people to stay here and post on a public forums - so that this sort of lucid point of view does not get lost to a small group talking amongst themselves in some far flung corner of the interweb.

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