Would I be wrong to leave the b**stard?

Science great post, agree with all you say. I posted this in the original @MNHQ thread about the policing of language and as yet have not got a reply.

MNHQ says

2. We don’t allow posts which are derogatory or aggressive towards trans people. We believe there are ways to express both opinion and facts without crossing this line.

I wrote That's fine but could we please add in "we don't allow posts which are derogatory or aggressive towards women and girls" as well? Or indeed just stop at we don't allow posts which are derogatory or aggressive Otherwise it does appear that transpeople are getting special treatment and, by omission, that it's fine to be derogatory and aggressive to other groups of people, which presumably is not your intent? (and by other groups of people I of course meant biological women)

It is ironic that we are being bullied / coerced into using a word we consider only applies to biological females for biological males, yet our feelings about doing this are less important than the feelings of trans 'women'. So, it seems biology matters when it comes to whose feelings are more important even if supposedly these two groups of people come under the one umbrella of 'women'.

Also agree it's unbelievably difficult to uproot your language and changing the use of pronouns is pretty fundamental and something we do instinctively without thinking about it. Try reading a child's book about a dog and substituting 'cat' every time you're meant to say 'dog', or substituting another word for 'the'. Virtually impossible. You end up getting confused and tongue-tied.

Thanks both. So the word woman is what is insisted on.

I find it interesting that ‘Linguistic denial’ of the word woman is OK for somebody who is biologically male to enforce on someone who is biologically female as a descriptor for the biologically male person. I am a woman, because, as is defined scientifically, I am an adult member of the class that bears young and produces ova. And I am being told that I am now denied the use of the scientifically correct word for my class and furthermore that me NOT using the word to describe someone not in that class is an aggressive act.

How very interesting.

(...but that is why whenever I have used the term transwoman i have done so without the space, i.e. to acknowledge that whatever they call themselves they are not women)

Bowl it may be more a Twitter thing, but 'trans woman' is what TA's use because they want trans to be a descriptor for 'woman', i.e trans is just a type of woman, whereas 'transwoman' is a term feminists have often opted for on Twitter as a way of saying they aren't a type of woman, rather simply dysphoric males or whatever. So transwoman can actually be a term of refusal to submit, but I'm still not using it here due to the context of the new guidelines and the elevation of mens feelings over women and feminism and the fact the difference would not be clear usually....

I haven’t actually come across that before - has anyone else? Would welcome some clarification on this one as I am genuinely trying to keep within guidelines here

Yes I've come across this demand from transactivists many times but I don't think that is an MN guideline. But no surprise that they are pushing this as far as they can. You won't get any thanks for saying "transwoman". Because they want to shut all this discussion down, especially things like your clear headed scientific approach.

Gender ID apparently trumps every other protected characteristic including sex and disability, so things are going to get 'interesting' very quickly.

I have just been told on another thread that transwoman without a space is transphobic and I must use trans woman. Linguistic denial apparently.

I haven’t actually come across that before - has anyone else? Would welcome some clarification on this one as I am genuinely trying to keep within guidelines here

MN have thrown us in front of the bus. We’ll be safe if we don’t move too much, but only for now, because the bus will move. Who is driving the bus though, that’s the question.

This is so true.

I want to stay here, but I will police neither my thoughts nor my words beyond what I deem necessary. If I want to say anyone with a penis, no matter if he is wearing a dress, or lipstick, or has grown his hair or taken artificial hormones, is a male member of the species, then I damn well will.

I am polite and use preferred pronouns for those who are polite and aware the their feeling of being female is perhaps not the worlds perception. Anyone bellowing about lady dick, or being a trans lesbian can get to fuck quite frankly.

This part of mumsnet is for feminists.

Feminists are women who oppose rule by men, and want to liberate women from it.

Men have stormed in and demanded we be silenced, banned, and shut down for saying things they think are anti man.

If they think this section of mumsnet is saying things that oppose them then why come here?

It's exactly the same as a far right Tory joining a Marxist forum and complaining about all the criticism of capitalism they are witnessing, and demanding it be stopped, and that people using expressions such as "surplus of labour" and "exploitation of the masses" be banned.

They have no right to stop us chatting amongst ourselves.

Yes OP, it is exactly the behaviour of an abuser, or at best an abuse enabler, I know, I’ve been there. You’ll say what you’re told, otherwise you’ll be punished. In time you‘ll learn to moderate your speech and ideas to stay safe.
MN have thrown us in front of the bus. We’ll be safe if we don’t move too much, but only for now, because the bus will move. Who is driving the bus though, that’s the question.

Italics fail

Thanks for your posts too, Ereshkigal, as with most other posters on FWR, I always enjoy reading your posts.

Thank you

You're probably right, we really need the more reasonable people to also make a stand and say "Not in our name!". I know it's easier to sit back and hope someone else deals with it, but I think we need everyone's voice in this. Silence is seen as agreement.

We do. People keep telling people not to leave but they don't seem to respect that some people will not refer to males as women out of principle.

gransactivists

This typo gave me a bit of much needed light relief. I bet Gransactivists would be much more sensible than TRAs!

Nothing to add, but I’m also autistic, truthful, stubborn and a doctor.
I loved every word of your post. I’m staying on MN to try and defend the truth, women’s rights and scientific fact, against a tide of TRA misogynistic, vitriolic nonsense.
I believe that the silent majority of reasonable trans gender people are probably appalled at the violent AGPs hijacking their agenda and shooting themselves in the foot by their pushing of self ID, invasion of women’s sports, refuges, changing rooms etc. There will be a backlash when the wider population realise what all this entails.

I have little interest in the whole transdebate but I do find it odd that MN gives a shit. Loads of people dislike MN. So what? Why does it matter if certain gransactivists have taken a dislike too?

I'm staying, though I haven't quite figured out what is and isn't allowed when trying to refer to people who believe that their "stereotypical-sex-role inner self doesn't match the dangly or non-dangly bits between the legs they were born with."

SSRISDMTDONDBBTLTWBW is a bit of a mouthful as an acronym.

And more generally I am still of the opinion that staying is the strongest act of resistance here, considering that the whole reason TA's/MRA's have focused on Mumsnet is to get gender critical women/feminists banned and/or FWR closed.

Definitely.

Once you see past the illusion of transgenderism you just can't go back to calling men anything other than men because that's what you see them as.

Everyone is going to slip up eventually, I've already done it once and called someone 'him' without even thinking about it. So that's 1 strike for me and we are only one day into the new regime. I'll be off to the gulag before the weekend is out I think.

Is rape a case of conflicting rights?

Because that's what it feels like MN is asking - for us as women to lie there quietly whilst some guy has his way - there is a crude way of putting this but I will stay couth.

Workplace bullying is an abuse of power or authority which attempts to undermine an individual or group of employees, and which may cause them to suffer work related stress.