The reason why the UK is so important in the Trans battle: why we matter as the "tipping-point"

I don't know, Pratchet. I am currently living in Cyprus. I know of the draft Bill through a client who works for the Ministry of Justice - she brought me some texts to translate that mentioned the forthcoming changes in legislation, and whe I queried it, she told me the gist of the Bill. I don't know what you could do to publicise it in Greek in Cyprus.

I have been talking about it to other parents of children at the same school as mine. None of them had a clue. Several have said they will contact the MP - but obviously they all live in the same constituency. A few people said they had heard ridiculous stories from the US and UK, and they were sure it wouldn't happen here. I wish I shared their optimism.

I think that freedom of the press, free speech and political process will ultimately have more influence on how England & Wales respond. These issues intersect as James Kirkup alludes in the article above.

Universities and British comedians may well also become significant.

I think also it helps that we don't have (NI excepted) a politically influential Christian right. Politics is always a tribal affair and it probably works better, say, stateside, to accuse people who don't buy gender identity theory of being akin to fundies. Here, everybody just goes eh? Like who? The fact that we have an NHS has also meant that child transition has not proceeded at the same pace as in jurisdictions where healthcare is private.

There's quite a bit going on in NZ at the moment I think.

Alex: can we do anything to help publicise it?

There is a thread on Reddit’s Gender Cynical board asking why the UK is such a hot bed of Terfs.

I’m tempted to sign up just to make some sort of comment about ‘British Women in Sensible Shoes’

James Kirkup article:
'Why are some MPs trying to shut down the transgender debate?'

(extract)
The other column that [Stephen Doughty MP] was so interested in also concerned children. In particular, he was struck by the Times’ headline using the phrase “trans lobby”. This, for reference, was on a column that argued that a number of changes in policy and convention are being made at the urging of groups advocating things that they say would benefit transgender people which, the columnist suggested, were not in the best interests of children. “You will understand why that is a particular concern, given the previous use of “gay lobby”, “Jewish lobby” and all of those sorts of things,” Doughty said. “Do you think the use of the phrase “trans lobby” is an appropriate one?”

As it happens, Dr Carmichael in her lecture said some things that seem relevant here:

“Gender has become amazingly topical and we have to be really careful not to assume that anyone is exploring or questioning their gender is going to want to change their bodies in line with that. The extremes on either side are not helpful. We need to look at the grey areas in between. To do that we need to be able to talk and discuss these issues. All too often stakeholders become lobby groups.”

She did not name any stakeholder. But her words might be relevant to a charity called Mermaids. Mermaids is a charity that describes itself as “a support group for children and young people with gender dysphoria and their families”. Its CEO, Susie Green describes herself as “parent to a daughter who was born male.” Mermaids is a relatively small charity (it had income of £127,000 in the year to March 2017) with a big reach. It has prominent backers and its advice and recommendations have been absorbed and adopted by many public bodies.... continues

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/05/why-are-some-mps-trying-to-shut-down-the-transgender-debate/

Important threads:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3241837-Why-has-the-trans-lobby-been-so-successful

The country where I am currently has a draft Bill on self ID to go before Parliament. It has gone completely under the radar. It is not in mainstream news. People are not being informed. It will be brought in by stealth.

I only know about the draft Bill myself through professional reasons. It's depressing that this is supposed to be a democracy, and yet these things are being done in secret.

Also the UK normally has such a raucous political culture, and such a high cultural tolerance for pisstaking, that the stifling of debate and attempts to punish people for not treating this issue with absolute seriousness stand out more in a British context, which I think is part of the reason why there's a debate happening. Not being allowed to talk about something topical and the complete cultural freeze around making fun of gender identity is so alien to most Brits that it's harder to ignore than in a culture that tends more towards deference or where politics is more polite in general.

Hadn't thought of the language issue, AngryAttackKittens. Great point.

The UK still punches considerably above its weight in relation to both size and population. Also the fact that these conversations are taking place in English makes them readable to a minority of people all over the world. If the UK tilts back towards sanity then other countries will follow, which is why lots of people are devoting lots of time to preventing that from happening.

I too am in Australia and am disgusted by the recent change to permit hormones to people under the age of 18 with only the approval of a doctor. They should have counselling before taking such a life altering step.

And LaSqrrl is probably correct that most of the changes to Australian legislation will be by stealth.

Not happy, Jan. (Reference to an Australian add that became a saying.)

If I point out the madness that's happening in the UK I feel I will be met with "We'll that's not here, you can't worry about everything that happens in other countries."

Same here Bloodmagic. Gosh, even tried alerting my sister and her friend to it the other night - my sister was well confident that "it could never happen, noooo".

Most of Australia will be by stealth I think. Plus large country geographically, harder to meet F2F.

I think the important difference about the current situation in the UK is that there is a debate. Everywhere else (and previously in the UK) changes have been made largely under the radar. Bill C-16 (adding the protections on the ground of 'gender identity or expression' in Canada for example was hardly discussed at all before being made into law. This is partly because Canada is federated and there was already legislation in place at the provincial level in many provinces, and partly I think because in general Canadians are not very politically active plus after a very right wing government the current liberal government was still getting a fairly easy ride.

In my province very similar anti-discrimination legislation was passed in 2016 (and again I'm not aware of any associated debate) and the process for changing 'gender designation' was changed in 2014 (as an amendment to the Vital Statistic Act, although it was called 'sex designation' there) so that all that was needed was the individual to complete a form with the support of another form from a doctor (psychologist, surgeon or physician) stating:
I confirm that the applicant’s gender identity does not align with the “sex” designation on their government-issued ID.'

After this all ID including birth certificates get changed as if you had been born the sex you wish to be identified as. Interestingly the doctor can be punished for fraudulently completing their form but there are no sanctions mentioned for the individual, who simply has to declare:

'I have assumed, identify with and intend to maintain the gender identity that corresponds with the requested change
in gender designation'

Children can use the same form but their parents/guardians have to sign to say that the give their consent.

So pretty much self ID with very loose touch gate keeping. It costs $30, although you probably have to pay the doctor something.

Most provinces started off with a requirement for surgery before changing sex designation on official records but removed the requirement because of successful law suits which seem to have been very badly defended eg:

'"When asked, at the presentation of this application, how it could possibly matter that a person born male, but who has transitioned and lives female, have a birth certificate that says they are female, counsel for Alberta could offer no answer."

There are 5 small countries in Europe that currently do legal gender recognition by self ID.

The European Court of Human Rights ruled last year that there is no breach of human rights if a country requires a diagnosis of gender dysphoria before granting a change of legal sex, so there is no pressure on governments to bring in such a law.

A.P., Garçon and Nicot v. France

It has been recommended by the European Commission so there are many countries looking at it including Sweden etc.

There are 5 countries in Europe that currently do legal gender recognition by self ID.

34 require a diagnosis.

mancheeze are you free to share a url for your livestream?

My impression was that Canada and the US are further down the rabbit hole that us. I'm Canadian/British and horrified by what's happening over there.

I'm American and Canadian and the reason I'm here on MN is because you UK women ARE on the front line. Your country has been the model of other Western countries and so everyone will look to you.

If you win this battle, other women in other countries will have a template and follow suit.

This is why I KNOW I have to support y'all and yesterday in my livestream I sent a bunch of women here to MN.

More determined, I agree...and Reluctant that is why I outlined above how trans rights - if based on equality - absolutely would not infringe on the rights of women and girls, the only reason it is is because they want their identity validated, and to do this they don't want equality, they want to override our rights. It's gaslighting. And there is no compromise. We all deserve to be treated equally and that means to be treated distinctly.

I always think of Kristina Jayne Harrison's piece about identity politics and the impact on transsexuals, and the phrase she wrote "we are a very tiny and vulnerable minority".

The aggressive sexual rights motives of cross dressers are in direct conflict with theirs too.

and yes, I do think the world is watching the UK in this. we've got to find a way forward that respects everyone's rights, including those of women and girls to the privacy, safety and dignity afforded by facilities separated on the basis of SEX .

the attacks make me more determined to stick up for women and girls

yes

the astonishing footage of the Bristol meeting made me start going to Women's place meetings. 2 so far, many more to follow I hope.

If people think they can intimidate me into changing my mind on this they can piss right off.

I think British people are less likely to be sucked into trans ideology than the Canadians and Americans. We are more likely to call out nonsense. Less likely to follow fads. Less concerned with being politically correct. Less open to change. We'll be polite and accommodating but only so far. We're aware of our history and not a newly founded culture.