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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Taking it out on your body - exploring possible roots

191 replies

womanformallyknownaswoman · 14/06/2018 11:49

This post emerges from a conversation started on another thread about the possible links between various conditions involving hurting one’s body, that I have called collectively “taking it out on your body”.

I thought a useful backdrop to this discussion is this:

The essence of radical feminism is the highlighting of the subjugation and marginalisation of women, by frequently consigning them to roles defined by men. This can mirror enslavement. This socialisation of women starts very early - I would contend in utero. It can certainly start early in the family and is fostered at societal and cultural levels and now is very heavily fuelled by social media.

These remarks are taken from Sheila Jeffreys at the recent Inconvenient Women WNTT event:

It is on the basis of sex that women are oppressed and on that basis that women rights are founded. It is in international law that sex is the basis of the granting of women’s rights.
..

The idea of gender arises from the oppression of women and cannot exist without it. Gender comprises behaviour and appearance norms required of men and women. Femininity is one half of gender and is the enforced behaviour of the oppressed, that is women. It includes humiliating clothing norms such as high heels, decoration, body exposure, body covering as well as the restriction of body movement, for example not taking up much space and so on.

It is based on the notion that women’s brains are somehow different from those of men, in ways that make them suited to such behaviour, make them rightfully subordinate and suited for doing the housework

The sparking comment on the other thread was this one:

user1499173618 Thu 14-Jun-18 08:43:48
BowlofBabelFish - the common thread between anorexia, bulimia, self-harm, trichotillomania, nail biting, gender dysphori (and, perhaps,tattooing, piercing) etc is deep-seated failure of recognition and denial of emotions. Human emotions are very real things but the gaslighting by society at large of human need and emotion causes immense confusion that results in people turning on themselves when they are not equipped to deal with the onslaught from the world at large.

To which I responded:

Emotional and psychological abuse targeting women, at family and societal level and now pervasive on SM, denies, discounts and coerces women away from their rightful autonomy and freedom of thought and being. This abuse can be somaticised by many women into blaming themselves, as the only tolerable, psychological alternative at an early age. This can lead to various manifestations of self harm and/ or taking it out on one's body. That is not women's fault but the environment they were raised in, where abuse is normalised and they are scapegoated.

From that point it was decided to start a separate thread.

OP posts:
user1499173618 · 14/06/2018 14:25

Over exercising, orthorexia

user1499173618 · 14/06/2018 14:25

Yes to alcohol.

boldlygoingsomewhere · 14/06/2018 14:24

Flowers To everyone that’s coped with this.
I think the link with intolerable conditions is really important to talk about.

It’s a relatively minor thing in comparison but I left teaching some years ago due to the way I and others were treated. It was like being in an abusive relationship - there was gaslighting, nothing was ever good enough, pushing the blame onto me ‘if you only did this, I wouldn’t have to...’, systematic destruction of self-esteem and feeling of competence. It was vicious and in many cases, malicious. The worst was feeling that there was no-one to turn to as it was the person in a position of power doing this. I watched it destroy other teachers before it turned on me.

The desire to ‘medicate’ those feelings away was very strong. To me, it seems that alcohol is also a socially acceptable way to self-harm. The temptation to drink to ‘drown my sorrows’ was very strong.

FortunateCookie · 14/06/2018 14:23

That book sounds great Offred, I will look for that.

My house is often a shit tip and it feels like a barometer of how well I am coping. But actually, in order to cope, I don’t do housework. So my messy house is about coping, not not coping, if that makes sense Grin

user1499173618 · 14/06/2018 14:22

Indeed, woman. I know far too many women in mid-life who are shattered and running on empty from trying to meet other people’s expectations for so long and who are then criticized for “letting themselves go”, abandoned by their husbands, impecunious and only with one another to socialise. They “overcoped”, they were good girls who didn’t rebel or let others down.

womanformallyknownaswoman · 14/06/2018 14:19

I've gotta go - be back later alligators - so much wisdom on this thread - awesome to experience :)

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womanformallyknownaswoman · 14/06/2018 14:18

Women are clearly expected to cope with the uncopable. Full time job in line with education , husband, children, housework, cooking, everyone healthy, happy and developing Fully in line with their potential? Woman, if you aren’t making all of that happen you aren’t coping as you should!

That's the catch 22 all right - set unreasonable expectations, keep em so busy they haven't got time to think about themselves and when they stop from exhaustion, replace them and throw them away

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womanformallyknownaswoman · 14/06/2018 14:16

A sort of internment of scapegoats.

What an awesome description - sad but descriptive

It feels like my life has become that - except the fences and guards of my internment camp are invisible

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Offred · 14/06/2018 14:14

The body keeps the score by Bessel Van Der Kolk is good. I often think, though it is focussing on the link between the body and trauma in treatment it is also interesting in relation to why people in distress frequently seek to damage the body.

user1499173618 · 14/06/2018 14:14

Women are clearly expected to cope with the uncopable. Full time job in line with education , husband, children, housework, cooking, everyone healthy, happy and developing Fully in line with their potential? Woman, if you aren’t making all of that happen you aren’t coping as you should!

womanformallyknownaswoman · 14/06/2018 14:14

or "stop this fucking groundhog day - I wanna get off."

I'm on a roll now....

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womanformallyknownaswoman · 14/06/2018 14:12

or "I'm doing my best stop but you keep taking my legs out from underneath me and thus fucking me over"

FlowersFlowers to all

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womanformallyknownaswoman · 14/06/2018 14:10

The problem is the assumption that the problem always lies in brain chemistry or emotional resilience rather than examining whether material conditions are objectively intolerable

Yes there isn't a diagnosis for "fucked over by family and the system repeatedly"

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FortunateCookie · 14/06/2018 14:09

Thank you woman and Beyond Flowers

By shit, I mean that they are not really healthy for me, I’m not passing too much judgement on them.

You are right that being alive and able to string a sentence together means they are working, that is a more positive way of looking at it, thank you Flowers

womanformallyknownaswoman · 14/06/2018 14:07

I don't subscribe to many of the labels given to abused women eg borderline, which would fit under Cluster B - I think the recommendation nowadays has moved away from that label.

I use Cluster B as it rightly should be used, to describe male abusers - from NPD to psychopathic. Most abusers never get a diagnosis and the legal system would further excuse their behaviour if they did, as they could claim to not be mentally fit to stand trial etc

So if I use it, it's to describe a particular category of aggressive abusers who set out to not just harm but destroy women and children.

I recall the poster you mentioned - they seemed to target AAK. I felt sad if the complainer felt the borderline label defined them. It probably helps gets scarce help, as many labels do. I personally find it hard to understand how any abused woman can be diagnosed as a cluster B - it doesn't make sense, to me

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user1499173618 · 14/06/2018 14:03

The mental health industry has a dreadful history of victim blaming. In the 1960s my mother worked at the luxury Swiss psychiatric clinic that had had Zelda Fitzgerald as an inpatient. It was full of the “undesirable” (homosexual, drug addicted, hysterical etc) members of super rich families. A sort of internment of scapegoats.

BeyondSceptical · 14/06/2018 14:02

Fortunate, so are mine, but if you're alive then they're working Flowers

BeyondSceptical · 14/06/2018 14:01

(also consider how many of those women actually don't have BPD but have been labelled with it for appropriately reacting to shit circumstances, or due to poor understanding of female presentation of autism)

Offred · 14/06/2018 14:01

My coping mechanisms become damaging when I’m being expected to cope with things I can’t cope with - as with everyone I imagine!

The problem is the assumption that the problem always lies in brain chemistry or emotional resilience rather than examining whether material conditions are objectively intolerable and whether the maladaptive coping mechanisms are a rational reaction.

womanformallyknownaswoman · 14/06/2018 13:59

coping mechanisms are still shit

I think that's hard on yourself if you don't mind me saying. Often as women who have been very harmed, the expectations of society etc are quite unrealistic. We are expected to cope without reasonable adjustments in place. It's very difficult and deep work to change behaviours and beliefs laid down in early years, and many never get the chance to get the appropriate help. I am sure you are doing your very best, as I do and others do - it's hard to live up to my internal, unreasonable expectations- we're all works in progress

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BeyondSceptical · 14/06/2018 13:58

Something vaguely similar was discussed a few weeks back, re the tendency to negatively refer to "cluster B's" - which unfairly includes borderline (often female) alongside the other types that take advantage of them. Especially given it is more likely that they will seek and have an official diagnosis

womanformallyknownaswoman · 14/06/2018 13:53

woman - a lot of us will have struggled with the distress of trying to live up to impossible roles written for us by our families. Our families were often well meaning. But very misguided.

Absolutely agree - and as I said earlier I consider the mental health industry to be part of society's victim blaming in the main - whilst the abusers get off un-named and scot-free - a bit like what's happening on here with the new Rules

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FortunateCookie · 14/06/2018 13:53

My coping mechanisms are still shit.

FortunateCookie · 14/06/2018 13:51

X post user

womanformallyknownaswoman · 14/06/2018 13:51

I think you can discuss the thing that we can't name as it's your experience - but whether you can name your natal sex is another quandary /s - oh the mess they create by bending over backwards.

Seriously it just crossed my mind - my fear - so let's not put any more barriers in our way. :)

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