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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Taking it out on your body - exploring possible roots

191 replies

womanformallyknownaswoman · 14/06/2018 11:49

This post emerges from a conversation started on another thread about the possible links between various conditions involving hurting one’s body, that I have called collectively “taking it out on your body”.

I thought a useful backdrop to this discussion is this:

The essence of radical feminism is the highlighting of the subjugation and marginalisation of women, by frequently consigning them to roles defined by men. This can mirror enslavement. This socialisation of women starts very early - I would contend in utero. It can certainly start early in the family and is fostered at societal and cultural levels and now is very heavily fuelled by social media.

These remarks are taken from Sheila Jeffreys at the recent Inconvenient Women WNTT event:

It is on the basis of sex that women are oppressed and on that basis that women rights are founded. It is in international law that sex is the basis of the granting of women’s rights.
..

The idea of gender arises from the oppression of women and cannot exist without it. Gender comprises behaviour and appearance norms required of men and women. Femininity is one half of gender and is the enforced behaviour of the oppressed, that is women. It includes humiliating clothing norms such as high heels, decoration, body exposure, body covering as well as the restriction of body movement, for example not taking up much space and so on.

It is based on the notion that women’s brains are somehow different from those of men, in ways that make them suited to such behaviour, make them rightfully subordinate and suited for doing the housework

The sparking comment on the other thread was this one:

user1499173618 Thu 14-Jun-18 08:43:48
BowlofBabelFish - the common thread between anorexia, bulimia, self-harm, trichotillomania, nail biting, gender dysphori (and, perhaps,tattooing, piercing) etc is deep-seated failure of recognition and denial of emotions. Human emotions are very real things but the gaslighting by society at large of human need and emotion causes immense confusion that results in people turning on themselves when they are not equipped to deal with the onslaught from the world at large.

To which I responded:

Emotional and psychological abuse targeting women, at family and societal level and now pervasive on SM, denies, discounts and coerces women away from their rightful autonomy and freedom of thought and being. This abuse can be somaticised by many women into blaming themselves, as the only tolerable, psychological alternative at an early age. This can lead to various manifestations of self harm and/ or taking it out on one's body. That is not women's fault but the environment they were raised in, where abuse is normalised and they are scapegoated.

From that point it was decided to start a separate thread.

OP posts:
SummerKelly · 16/06/2018 06:24

It really bothers me that a way of surviving terrible events is deemed to make a person less trustworthy and as a consequence, more easily dismissed.

Yes being given "a diagnosis" is often not helpful to women going through court etc. I also think it's easy for us to blame ourselves because of what other people (including professionals) have told us. I was in an abusive relationship for a while but I felt I was just as bad because I was drinking too much and self harming. I was too ashamed to get help because I felt people would say if only I behaved better this wouldn't happen to me.

Writersblock2 · 15/06/2018 20:33

FortuneCookie - what you typed really resonates with me. No matter how awful some of the things I went through were, it was the reactions of people, professionals, and organisations that really screwed with my self-worth too.

I believe women's only spaces, both online and off, are one of the ways we can heal. At the Truro event it really struck me how utterly safe it felt for me emotionally. I think other women felt the same - women shared their stories, both during the Q&A and afterwards at the bar. There was a lot of hugging going on, and I am not usually a hugger at all, but it felt amazing - it was genuine, and everyone was just able to be themselves.

I'm still trying to digest it, tbh, but it really compounded for me how vital women-only spaces are, be they little events like ours, or massively vital services like refuges.

BeyondSceptical · 15/06/2018 19:41

Boldly, I know the exact Dutroux link you mean, it's been imprinted on my brain for years now. Think I'll have a look for these books too.

Flowers fortunate :(

FortunateCookie · 15/06/2018 19:38

Flowers for everyone.

I was raped by a boy I was at school with. I’ve never been able to get angry about it but the systematic failure of every single person or organisation I came into contact with afterwards is the bit that really messed me up I think. School, doctor, police, parents all totally failed me.

I hope that the sharing of our stories will enable some collective insights into the forces of female oppression. And where feminism,should be heading. I have my own beliefs and ideas about this but don’t feel ready to share them yet.

This sounds really valuable.

boldlygoingsomewhere · 15/06/2018 19:38

Currently reading one of the Peter Levine books as recommended upthread. Very interesting and relevant. The possibility of being in a frozen, immobilised state following trauma is something more people should be aware of.

A few years ago, there was a thread on MN which discussed the Marc Dutroux case from Belgium. There was a link to some documents where the type of abuse suffered by the victims was detailed. It was so horrific that I had to stop reading. One of the things which stayed with me though was the deliberate strategy of ‘breaking’ them mentally. Many were diagnosed with multiple personality disorder and as a consequence were seen as ‘unreliable’ witnesses. Sad

It really bothers me that a way of surviving terrible events is deemed to make a person less trustworthy and as a consequence, more easily dismissed.

user1499173618 · 15/06/2018 14:01

Whose agenda are we being asked to follow? Whose interests are being prioritized?

womanformallyknownaswoman · 15/06/2018 11:43

Feeling that someone you hope has your back actually doesn't "get it" at all is horrible.

Yes the hostility in their bystander bullying and lack of concern for women survivors of male violence is very, very disappointing and palpable. They know not what they do.

The good news is we have a little community here and lots of supportive women

OP posts:
user1499173618 · 15/06/2018 11:34

I believe that the women decision makers here are among those who understand the least

Very sadly, some women in positions of power are in bed with the oppressor. They compromise their own sex for personal gain.

womanformallyknownaswoman · 15/06/2018 11:31

Dermatillomania is particularly bad atm. I like Winter as I can hide my skin

FlowersFlowers

OP posts:
BeyondSceptical · 15/06/2018 11:21

Copied from the autistic women's thread as I think it applies here too...

Bringing this over here as I didn't want to "me me me" on the site stuff thread - I wrote about relying on mn.

I really don't think anyone who is not extremely socially isolated due to the sum of many factors can understand just how much some women rely on mn. And as much as I hate to say it, I believe that the women decision makers here are among those who understand the least.

Tbh that is making me feel low more than the rule changes. It may not be instant, but over time I can adapt to new rules. Feeling that someone you hope has your back actually doesn't "get it" at all is horrible.

user1499173618 · 15/06/2018 09:33

silkpyjamas Flowers

I can very much relate to the well-meaning parents that you don’t want or feel able to let down, but who don’t give you the space to explore who you are and what matters to you.

I hope that the sharing of our stories will enable some collective insights into the forces of female oppression. And where feminism,should be heading. I have my own beliefs and ideas about this but don’t feel ready to share them yet.

silkpyjamasallday · 15/06/2018 09:27

Flowers to all the amazing, intelligent, strong women on this thread, I’m so sorry that there are so many of us that go through this. It is almost comforting to know that you are not alone in feeling so lost.

I can relate to so many of these posts, I only recently started to categorise the things I do/have done to myself as self harm or punishment. It started with starving myself, then binging and purging as a young teen, moved on to risky sex, smoking, drinking and drugs as an older teen, then onto slashing myself with keys, hitting myself with heavy books, throwing myself against walls and then morphed into staying in abusive relationships, having sex I didn’t want and trying to help or fix the horrible men I had coupled up with. It all came from my desire to put forward the perfect image of myself and to never fail or give up at anything, I was suffering so much but I couldn’t and wouldn’t tell anyone, I believed because of my background and the privileges I enjoyed (wealthy nuclear family, private education, never wanted for anything materially etc) I didn’t have the right to feel as awful as I did every single day, that there was something wrong with me and I just needed to do better. Having my daughter crystallised it all for me, it has been a long and difficult journey to forgiving myself and letting the anger go, but I am getting there slowly but surely I think. I am determined that my daughter will not have the same pressures from me as I had from my parents at the very least, as I know I can’t change societal expectations of women. My parents were well meaning, but I was so desperate to please them and make them proud that I didn’t even have any fun as a child, I denied myself normal childhood experiences so never learnt from mistakes as I never made any and as a teen was chronically stressed and unhappy trying to stay afloat. I feel that until recently, my whole life has been fake, a lie, whatever you want to call it.

Im angry that I wasted so much of my life putting on a performance of perfection, I don’t think anyone knows who I really am, because I don’t know myself. Everything I have ever done has been to please others, I have denied and ignored my inner self for so long that it barely exists, harming myself was when I felt most like a real person and allowed myself to feel and indulge in emotional pain through the physical.

qumquat · 15/06/2018 08:41

Sorry I still haven't read the whole thread (am bracing myself because I think it will upset me) but this is an excellent article on female rage mobile.nytimes.com/2018/01/17/magazine/i-used-to-insist-i-didnt-get-angry-not-anymore.html

SummerKelly · 15/06/2018 08:37

Thanks Artemis - my eyes were opened to this by a women's project that I was working with and their realisation about the number of women they were seeing who had experienced trauma. I did a lot of reading about it and I was honestly shocked at the amount of stuff that is actually in existence about the prevalence and impact of trauma and how to work with it versus what is common knowledge, I.e. very little, even amongst health and social care workers. I actually think it's a scandal that many of us have been retraumatised by the sometimes callous behaviour of "professionals" (I'm sure not all professionals but no one helped me) who have not recognised our distress and our actual physical incapability of being able to do anything different because it's wired into our bodies, and instead failed to believe us, labelled us attention seeking or blamed us for the behaviour that actually helped us to survive in a dangerous and unpredictable world.

I am angry because not only did I have the hell of my 20s to live through (in some ways I feel just as traumatised by my self harming behaviour in my 20s than I was by the original abuse) but I now have physical health problems as a result.

There definitely is more awareness these days, but a lot of that is still at the level of rhetoric than real understanding.

Artemis7 · 15/06/2018 08:03

I think there are some extremely intelligent women on this thread. I agree with what SummerKelly said ‘it takes months or years of rewiring neural pathways’, it is true, but it can and does happen. ‘You can recognise though that the emotion might be something to do with your past and not your present and that an emotion doesn't have to lead to a particular consequence. There are very valid reasons you feel the way you do.’ Completely agree with this.

I agree that the medical model emphasises ‘chemical imbalances’ etc, when really the focus should be on societal and situational circumstances, and how one has been conditioned to respond to them, which as SummerKelly has said can be changed over time.

I also agree with mancheeze ‘It's GOOD to be self-ish’. We as women need to prioritise ourselves much, much more, it isn’t really selfish even, it is just what is right and what every other group does. If we don’t prioritise ourselves no one else will, in fact others will usually try to take advantage of us.

Talking about the current situation, men are so used to women prioritising them over ourselves, they think we are selfish when we show even the smallest hint of putting our own needs above their demands. I have no intention of putting males wants above what is best for women, non whatsoever, my priority is women and children and always will be.

I think all of the women on this thread are strong and courageous, the stories that people have shared show how much strength women really have, even if we are not always aware of it.

womanformallyknownaswoman · 15/06/2018 03:33

Bump

OP posts:
Offred · 14/06/2018 21:54

Ah thanks for the flowers, it is what it is really. I can’t really do anymore than I am doing to change it and I think it’s important to talk about what things are really like TBH.

This thread has been good for that.

qumquat · 14/06/2018 21:35

Sorry Offred I hadn't read your posts when I posted Flowers

QuentinSummers · 14/06/2018 21:35

I often struggle to really feel like my life is real, like the things that have happened really did happen and like I exist.
Big hugs for you
You post amazing stuff on here so you must be awesome in real life. Sorry things are so sucky Flowers

qumquat · 14/06/2018 21:34

YY to all of this. I don't have time to read the full thread now but like many others I have had so many of these conditions. The pattern of women turning anger onthrmselves while men express it outwardly. For me a big turning point was realising I was absolutely fucking livid 90% of the time. About both personal and societal issues. I do think discovering this board and feminism in general has made a massive difference to my mental health as I now know I'm not going mad.

(And don't get me started on people saying my PND was my hormones when I was struggling to bf a baby who caused me agony feeding for 18 hours a day during which I was unable to even reach for drink!)

The world is fucking awful and the injustice is intolerable a lot of the time. I think maybe because women are socialised to be more empathetic we possibly feel these injustices more. Certainly anecdotally my brother and dp are not overly burdened with empathy and are.much the happier for it!

I think the culture of positive thinking and affirmations also has a lot to answer for. Anger is bad for us and must be 'let go'. Thank god I don't believe that any more!

Offred · 14/06/2018 21:25

But none of that is me. It’s my circumstances. I know I am a person with a lot to offer. I know I am not a bad person. I know I am a strong and resilient person. An intelligent and caring person. I can’t tell you how important to me having the psych say ‘nothing wrong with you, it’s just your life is shit’ was!

Offred · 14/06/2018 21:22

(And this is my life being better than it has been for the last two years TBH, DD is getting better)

user1499173618 · 14/06/2018 21:21

Oh Offred Sad

Offred · 14/06/2018 21:19

I don’t care what anyone might do with whatever I say on here TBH.

Part of helping myself has been pushing myself to be honest about my actual life and experiences... I often struggle to really feel like my life is real, like the things that have happened really did happen and like I exist.

I think that’s why ‘enjoy your erasure’ was so frightening. My whole entire life has been one long battle against erasure. In my current life I basically don’t exist.

I walk to school, I walk home, I care for DD and do all the stuff that goes with having a very unwell child who isn’t in school, I fight constantly with services that are meant to support her but won’t because of cuts, I try to set aside an hour each day of alone time for each of the other three kids, I stay up way later than I can cope with caring for DD and then I sleep a couple of hours and am woken by the neighbour’s kids screaming (ASD meltdowns) at 6 am...

Sometimes I can go three days without leaving the house because when the kids are with their dad I am so exhausted I just sleep...

Many of the days I am wobbly walking and it takes an age and a lot of effort to walk anywhere, many days I have to drink 6/7 cups of coffee just to stay awake.

My DTD asked me the other day ‘what is your favourite thing to do when we are with dadda?’ and I could not think of a single thing. It is like I don’t actually exist as a person...

And that’s why I come on here. I have no friends to see, no life to have... I’ve just become a nothing person really.

I got invited to a birthday party a couple of weeks ago and I couldn’t face it. I was too afraid of being outside the house.

mancheeze · 14/06/2018 20:49

One more thing that resonated with me:

I feel a bit exposed at the mo with all the stuff going on regarding the thing we must not mention

So do I. This is why I won't mention anything too personal.

It's a shame that women can't be online together and speak openly but it just goes to show how badly female only spaces are needed and why women are fighting to protect the few we do have.

Men will use any tool at their disposal to hurt women, online or offline.

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