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Original poster

Taking it out on your body - exploring possible roots

191 replies

womanformallyknownaswoman · 14/06/2018 11:49

This post emerges from a conversation started on another thread about the possible links between various conditions involving hurting one’s body, that I have called collectively “taking it out on your body”.

I thought a useful backdrop to this discussion is this:

The essence of radical feminism is the highlighting of the subjugation and marginalisation of women, by frequently consigning them to roles defined by men. This can mirror enslavement. This socialisation of women starts very early - I would contend in utero. It can certainly start early in the family and is fostered at societal and cultural levels and now is very heavily fuelled by social media.

These remarks are taken from Sheila Jeffreys at the recent Inconvenient Women WNTT event:

It is on the basis of sex that women are oppressed and on that basis that women rights are founded. It is in international law that sex is the basis of the granting of women’s rights.
..

The idea of gender arises from the oppression of women and cannot exist without it. Gender comprises behaviour and appearance norms required of men and women. Femininity is one half of gender and is the enforced behaviour of the oppressed, that is women. It includes humiliating clothing norms such as high heels, decoration, body exposure, body covering as well as the restriction of body movement, for example not taking up much space and so on.

It is based on the notion that women’s brains are somehow different from those of men, in ways that make them suited to such behaviour, make them rightfully subordinate and suited for doing the housework

The sparking comment on the other thread was this one:

user1499173618 Thu 14-Jun-18 08:43:48
BowlofBabelFish - the common thread between anorexia, bulimia, self-harm, trichotillomania, nail biting, gender dysphori (and, perhaps,tattooing, piercing) etc is deep-seated failure of recognition and denial of emotions. Human emotions are very real things but the gaslighting by society at large of human need and emotion causes immense confusion that results in people turning on themselves when they are not equipped to deal with the onslaught from the world at large.

To which I responded:

Emotional and psychological abuse targeting women, at family and societal level and now pervasive on SM, denies, discounts and coerces women away from their rightful autonomy and freedom of thought and being. This abuse can be somaticised by many women into blaming themselves, as the only tolerable, psychological alternative at an early age. This can lead to various manifestations of self harm and/ or taking it out on one's body. That is not women's fault but the environment they were raised in, where abuse is normalised and they are scapegoated.

From that point it was decided to start a separate thread.

OP posts:
Offred · 22/06/2018 17:45

And I fucking identify as tired too.

Offred · 22/06/2018 17:42

Yy woman.

I have two auto immune diseases.

Hannah really does nail it.

It is interesting you mention war zones.

I had a realisation (Van Der Kolk never gets further than noting different responses to treatment) after reading the body keeps the score that actually obviously there is a difference between men traumatised by war and women traumatised by men. Obviously men come home from war, women (in the main) go home to men....

So much of the literature re recovery makes a point of needing to get to a place of safety in order to effectively recover, women do not have that place of safety. We have pockets of special places that we go to from our homes, from our lives which are lived with men, and we return to those homes when we leave.

‘Why are segregated spaces so important?!’ They cry.... switch on your bloody brain...

Original poster
womanformallyknownaswoman · 22/06/2018 16:42

Thx Quentin the acknowledgement and flowers are welcome and reassuring

OP posts:
QuentinSummers · 22/06/2018 15:58

woman Flowers
Thanks for that post

Original poster
womanformallyknownaswoman · 22/06/2018 15:39

Great minds think alike Offred - I too was going to mention Hannah Gadsby's Nanette on here as I felt a resonance with this thread and women's' experience on here, like mine. I was laughing then crying then crying and next day crying - but good crying. Healing crying. And I have had a big shift I think (it's work in progress).

I won't cross post as I commented on the Hannah thread - but I am one of those strong rebuilt women she refers to. The somatization of trauma and abuse is real and visceral and presents differently in different folks. It can feel crazy but it doesn't mean I am crazy. But it is all about the body. It's roots are the same - invariably abuse in girls and women.

Emotional distress is as painful as physical pain - something that gets overlooked. Women commit suicide to escape the emotional pain.

The impact of serious PTSD is analogous to paraplegia. Yes, that's right - but can you find anyone who will acknowledge how serious this shit is. No wonder women, cut, self-medicate with drugs, alcohol, sex, spending - why would they not? They are not flawed but have been floored - by male violence. Auto-immune diseases are often the body's way of signalling enough - I can't bear this suffering and invalidation anymore.
No wonder young girls are ripe for grooming by Big Pharm and they who cannot be named cult, into believing that body distress is caused by being in the wrong body. Many times I have asked "Beam me up Scotty!!). But to no avail - I couldn't change bodies.

The pain of reality and the trauma is usually too much for any one individual to bear - that's the truth. And we are isolated and made to bear it alone in the main - we are not allowed to be held and looked after whilst we come through it and heal collectively. We are denied women's healing, holding and lived experience and are given Hobson's Choice, a male prognosis and treatment as they see fit for women.

We are pathologised, labelled and condemned as too sensitive, ill, unstable, etc It's all a bloody big DARVO to deflect away from the elephant in the room, male violence. And that is what Hannah nails and names.

It can be healed, slowly and mindfully. I have come through a lifelong war zone - I have healed some serious stuff - one example is I nearly drowned as a kid and was blamed for it!! Under severe stress, my body reproduces the same symptoms I experienced when pulled out of the river - still today, many, many years later, I'll be retching and coughing up water in my living room. Go figure.. It's like my body has its own record of events, and when safe enough, starts to release them (frequently later in life, when we can tolerate the pain and holding the distress). Imagine that with a rape memory, or childhood sexual abuse. Imagine all the times the body has been battered and the natural rage locked down.

I am not mad but re-experiencing, in that example, a life-threatening event that was compounded by severe emotional abuse. I've had painful body injuries and pain that have gone after an hours body treatment - manifesting as real and present day, and with real pain, but they were trauma memories and disappeared after the right bodywork. But appropriate treatment is withheld, limited or dismissed mostly and replaced by misinformed and unhelpful quick "fixes" or long-term drugs - to dampen down and deny the body's distress.

Trauma memories don't come back as a whole memory, but fragments - a smell, a sensation, a touch, a feeling - but not anchored in any coherent narrative. The narrative emerges slowly, bit by bit.

Never doubt your experiences or recollections or feelings. Trust your body - it doesn't lie but can get a little confused between time zones :)

OP posts:
Offred · 22/06/2018 14:21

There was a recommendation to watch ‘nanette’ on Netflix on here the other day. It’s a show by Hannah Gadsby who has forged a comedy career out of being ‘that lesbian’. It is a mix of comedy with some profoundly passionate politics (and some art history) and it reminded me of this thread TBH. It felt like giving this thread a stage TBH via Hannah.

I would recommend it but also caution that it may bring up feelings of your own! I found the political elements very powerful and the comedy aspects very clever.

BeyondSceptical · 22/06/2018 12:22

I'm comfortable over sharing here, in view of all potential wankbadgers, but understand if others are not :)

Offred · 22/06/2018 07:13

I agree with bewilderness personally. I’m going to sit on the fence though and say I don’t mind where this thread is because I know it has sensitive info on it and is encouraging people to post more sensitive info so fine if the majority feel more comfortable moving it.

One thing though - you may notice even the usually activist ploppers have stayed away from here so far.

thebewilderness · 22/06/2018 01:30

I have wondered about using a different board (e.g. feminist theory) for this kind if convo and leaving this one for trans stuff

I am not willing to give up one inch.
If there are enough transgender advocates who are also MN member then MNHQ can create a board for them to talk about themselves.

boldlygoingsomewhere · 21/06/2018 09:38

The Chat board has become the default board for all feminism discussions. I certainly never think to check the other boards.

However, it would be a real shame for this discussion to get lost so I’m happy for a move there. Probably makes sense to move more discussions to avoid the persistent derailers and trolls.

Original poster
womanformallyknownaswoman · 21/06/2018 08:33

QuentinSummers

That's a possibility to move it - it's a shame if people don't know it's there though - though presumably that can be highlighted every so often by a post and signpost. Let's see what the consensus is...

OP posts:
Original poster
womanformallyknownaswoman · 21/06/2018 08:31

The level of informed help available is shockingly low - for example, I recently discovered where I am, that DV is not a mandatory subject on psychology and /or medical degrees and that a shockingly large number of psychiatrists did not have any training in recognising DFV dynamics.

In addition, on medical degrees, something like a couple of hours is spent on Cluster B personality disorders, and so again there is little expertise in the field of those aggressive types (NPDs etc) - often undiagnosed - who are the male abusers, in different guises.

In addition, women are pathologised and still locked up for displaying CPTSD symptoms that are the result of male violence acted out on them, often from young ages. The abuser is disappeared in that action.

It's no surprise to me that the vast majority of referrals to the Tavistock are for young girls who have body hatred, that manifests in various ways. That body hatred is being encouraged on social media to be viewed as being uncomfortable in one's body - that is true, trauma makes being in one's body in life a challenging and confronting experience - on a minute by minute, hour and daily basis. This is little understood. It's a normal response if one's development has been horrendously disrupted plus being scapegoated by the abuser and the system(s) that support them.

This doesn't mean that the explanation the young girls are being encouraged on social media to believe is actually correct - but it takes time and resources to work through that individually. Far easier to prescribe drugs and surgery which may well just be dealing with the symptoms and not the root cause.

OP posts:
QuentinSummers · 21/06/2018 08:04

It's so annoying isn't it bewilderness
I have wondered about using a different board (e.g. feminist theory) for this kind if convo and leaving this one for trans stuff

thebewilderness · 21/06/2018 06:30

This is one of the important threads that is being pushed off the front page by the midnight misogynists. They start a bunch of threads that have no purpose but to drive Feminist conversations off the front page.

Offred · 20/06/2018 20:01

Good thread from JE, I also love her!

I started self harming a few months after I dissociated from anger after that beating IIRC.

QuentinSummers · 20/06/2018 07:24

qumquat Flowers
I feel you, it's one of the reasons I don't feel "normal". People say stuff like that and I hold onto it for years. I would love to be at a point where I could just think "what an arse" and ignore it.

Just read this on Twitter and thought it was relevant. I love Jessica Eaton.

mobile.twitter.com/Jessicae13Eaton/status/1009195237837852673

LoveMySituation · 19/06/2018 22:23

Qumquat Flowers

qumquat · 19/06/2018 22:09

YY to the lack of/bad support. I deliberately never mention my disordered eating to drs because their responses over the years have been useless at best and damaging at worst. When I first went to a Dr about my lack of periods aged 17. She (yes, she) weighed me, told me I was underweight and 'some girls' thought they needed to be skinny and they didn't, and sent me on my way feeling two feet tall. Not a single question about my eating habits or general state of mind. I ate a cake on the way home trying to follow her instructions, then starved myself for days because I couldn't cope with having eaten it.

Another classic was when I was in hospital for an allergic reaction to Prozac at 18 and the hospital put me next to an attempted suicide. Then after the night from hell listening to her vomit and discuss her suicide attempt while I was swollen up like a balloon, the superior Dr came round and again made me feel two feet tall by asking sneeringly 'and why were you on anti depressants?' as he clearly thought I was an attention seeking child. I started running out in front of cars directly after that.

These are stories I haven't really told anyone and have been debating posting or not. But this feels like the place to share them.

Original poster
womanformallyknownaswoman · 19/06/2018 08:46

Hugs look at this link

OP posts:
boldlygoingsomewhere · 18/06/2018 20:40

I’ve also had days where I think I’ve just had enough of the struggle or feeling completely numb. My feelings are deadened in a lot of ways - I’m very aware that I don’t react ‘normally’ to situations and feel quite detached.

Agree that the narrative around suicide is not helpful at all when the help isn’t there. In fact, I’ve found the callousness of some in positions who are supposed to help, made me feel so much worse. The realisation that there is no real welfare safety net even for the ‘deserving’ and if you do dare to seek help to get back on your feet, you are viewed negatively by society.

Offred · 18/06/2018 20:15

We’re being gaslighted re suicide all the time I think in that no-one is bothered about the distress that leads to suicide but we obsess over suicide rates and bang on about ‘seeking help’ not much use of the ‘help’ doesn’t exist or is actually just an endless cycle of ADs that do nothing because the problem is social.

Offred · 18/06/2018 20:13

Me too qumquat. I think this is what explains the higher level of distress but lower numbers of completed suicide amongst women vs men.

qumquat · 18/06/2018 19:20

iwish that's interesting re parental suicide. When I first found out I was pregnant the brief euphoria was followed by terrible panic that I could now never commit suicide. (Although in fact I did spend most of her first two years seriously considering it). Ive always found thinking of suicide a comfort- the knowledge that I can make it stop if needed, but now I can't as it will fuck up my daughter. It still terrifies me sometimes.

user1499173618 · 18/06/2018 18:14

boatyardblues - I agree, once one has examined and analysed the causes of one’s own trauma, it becomes much easier to identify problematic behaviours in third party scenarios.

BeyondSceptical · 18/06/2018 14:33

Bloody gaslighting headfuck on all sides, rant rant rant Angry

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