New guidelines - we aren't allowed to refer to natal sex

How to avoid pronouns
Sarah Brown (LGBT+LibDem) has asserted her belief that she is female

Sarah Brown (LGBT+LibDem) has asserted the belief Of being female.

If women have to accept people who say they are transwomen as women, am I able to identify as a transwoman?

Yes of course. Go for it! It's all a big pick and mix after all.

Naice great post, i hope @MNHQ really reflect on it. When so many women on these boards are pointing out the same issues they should listen to us...

Snappity, for clarification, for a lot of us all "woman" means is adult human female which refences sex and age.

I know that for some the word "woman" references a gender concept, which I don't understand and thus can't believe in.

So in effect we are speaking two different languages. However apparently despite my "language" being a fairly well understood concept by most of the English speaking world - it's the one that's unfair and possibly in breach of website rules.

It is very odd.

AlfredDaButtler

Sarah Brown (LGBT+LibDem) has asserted her belief that she is female.

2013 Guardian Article on the origins of 'Press for Change' organisation & 2004 GRA.
(extract)
"Sarah Brown, an openly trans Lib Dem councillor in Cambridge, was a man when she married Sylvia in 2001. They stayed together through Brown's transition, which began in 2005. Brown wanted to be recognised as a woman in law and she and Sylvia convinced themselves that annulling their marriage and becoming civil partners would "just be a bureaucratic exercise that didn't mean anything". When they got their decree of nullity, however, "We realised we had been wrong. We left the court holding hands, in tears," says Brown. Far from being healing, the words of their civil partnership a few weeks later were "a kick in the teeth". Even their marriage certificate was confiscated. The proposed marriage equality legislation will not allow people such as Brown to have her original marriage recognised again.

This is a source of personal heartache, but Brown is convinced that trans people's biggest single problem is access to decent healthcare. Within 24 hours of her creating the hashtag #transdocfail, she had been inundated with 2,000 tweets of trans people's negative experiences at the hands of medical professionals. "It revealed a massive level of abuse. If it was happening to any other minority it would be on the national news," says Brown. Another ongoing battle for trans people is to revise the World Health Organisation's International Classification of Diseases (ICD) so that transsexuality is not listed as a mental illness. (Ironically, this was added to the ICD around the time homosexuality was removed; campaigners such as Burns say it is useful to be in the ICD to help trans people access healthcare but it should be "less stigmatising".)" continues
www.theguardian.com/society/2013/jan/22/voices-from-trans-community-prejudice

If women have to accept people who say they are transwomen as women, am I able to identify as a transwoman?

I don't believe in a manly brain or a lady brain, but there sure as hell is evidence of a befuddled brain.

Do you mean legally a woman, or biologically a woman, Snappity?

Fuck me! I’ve just googled what Ian Huntley is now doing and it’s knocked me sick!

Clearly he is hoping to be put in to a female prison where he can start abusing again.

Staggered.

But transwomen are, by definition, not female. Women, by definition, are adult human females. It's the reason why the apparent ban on referring to natal sex is so illogical - trans identity/status is intrinsically a reference to biological sex. Women are never born with the ability to produce sperm. Men are never born with the ability to produce ova.

I reiterate posters who have said that we need the language to talk about the issues.

Also there is no obligation to believe that transwomen are women

There is because otherwise you are assuming that some women aren't women without knowing their birth certificate or biology. That is discrimination. T

No from me.

If someone can't even define woman then what sort of debate can actually be had?

If the only interaction I have had with someone involves them referring to themselves as female and I have no reason whatsoever to believe that may not be the whole truth, I will assume they are whatever sex they say.

If they are a well known transperson/were historically well known as the opposite sex (including being known for criminal offences), or have ever referred to themselves in conversation as trans or as the opposite sex, or have referred to experiences that can only happen to a transperson or someone of the opposite sex, then I cannot magically forget that and view them as what they now say they are.

Simple. :)

Snappity clearly has no understanding of what women means so lets stop letting them derail the thread.

We cant communicate meanings with people who dont speak the same language.

Snappity transwomen are biological males. We are allowed to say that.

There is an assumption that trans women are not sex = women without knowing their personal details. That's what needs to stop.

They aren't female. They never will be. It's not my fault. It isn't going to stop.

Heh guess I'm going to be reported as I posted while Snappity was getting to the point.

Equality doesnt mean pretending men are women.

There is an assumption that trans women are not sex = women without knowing their personal details. That's what needs to stop.

TBH there are probably transwomen posting on Mumsnet quite happily being assumed to be women. (As in adult human female)

However although troll hunting is discouraged there is no obligation to believe that someone is who they say they are.

Also there is no obligation to believe that transwomen are women (AHF). There is no obligation to believe in the concept of gender identity. You are quite entitled to believe in those things and I am entitled not to.

I'm an atheist so the whole gendered soul thing is a bit of non-starter.

Snappity. As I said I am Elizabeth I. You can call me Your Majesty. I hereby send you to the Tower for crimes against language and reality. Are you going to go?

How does sending birth certificates prove you are that person, anyway. Didn't think that through did you grin I could send my dads in, doesn't make me a man in his fifties. Or one of the DCs maybe. Oo, the choices are endless...

Glad someone made that point. I needed to wait for someone else to do it.

So the only system which is not discriminatory is that on Mumsnet we accept all members to self-ID their sex and treat as breaches of guidance everyone who says that all trans women are not women.

Another day.....another science denier.

We do treat people equally.

Males and females get treated equally, and if you were a member youd know that doesnt always happen and people get pulled up on it.

Equality doesnt mean pretending men are women.