New guidelines - we aren't allowed to refer to natal sex

I do understand about the space thing Joan and the very powerful points you make.

I'm prepared to continue using transwoman/transman/transperson if it will allow me to continue to post on MN. Because more and more people are waking up to what is going on and saying 'No, this gender-stuff is bollocks'. And that's in no small part due to Mumsnet, which is just about the only public place where these discussions are still happening.

More and more people are coming here after having seen things like the ManFriday chaps in MSM and they get it. They get what we are saying. I do think the tide has turned and that is why it's so important that these discussions continue out in the open.

The was a terrific post from a delurker last night, don't know if you seen it? It was by JohnSmith7777 on this thread www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3278608-Before-you-rush-off-to-a-private-chat-forum-and-before-you-post-in-Feminism-chat

If I am unable to refer to someone as the sex that they actually are, I am certainly not going to be referring to them as the sex that they are not.

MNHQ's new guidelines clarified that for me.

Although I don't think that was their intention.

This is from a decade ago so this argument has raged on for longer:
takesupspace.wordpress.com/2008/10/15/put-the-goddamn-space-in-transwoman-transfeminism-transmasculine-etc-language-politics-1

Oh feminism is definitively for transgender females, because feminism is rooted in biological sex. Transgender males seem to hate feminism very much indeed.

I understand your argument Bore but I think it is dangerously misguided.

Transwoman was the accepted term by trans activists only a decade or so ago. They pushed, hard, for that space, claiming they were being dehumanised by the lack of it. They said that transwoman made them seem like a different species, then when they got their way and the space was generally enforced/accepted, they began to claim it was an adjective, that they were women 'just like black women or disabled women or short women' (I'm sure you have heard this argument?). And hence, as they were trans women, so therefore we must be cis women. That phrasing directly stole from us the right to just continue to being women, it stole our right to even talk about being a woman and sharing history, culture or political goals with other women. Now abortion is not about women, fgm is not about women, etc. Cis women are the worst.

From that point I have seen the evolution of trans ideology further into claiming they are actually female. We see men transition late in life and be elevated to taking awards and political positions and opportunities to represent women, that were all intended for women. They are eligible because "trans women are women".

All this in around a decade. I believe we must resist any framing that suggests or accepts that men can transition to become women. They will not accept a little, they will always push further. This is colonisation.

Of course feminism is for trans women particularly if they are legally female. But even if not many trans women are subject to some of the same discrimination that any woman can face - by the fact that she is perceived as a woman by those around her (despite the fact she can't get pregnant).

Here we have an analogy - Man Becomes Woman; Subject Verb Object.
I am not an object.

You were able to collect your child from school on time.

You = subject
to collect = verb
child = object.

Does that mean children are 'objects'? You have attempted to twist basic grammar into a bizarre argument of false equivalence.

Can we say 'trans rights ARE women's rights?'

But seahorse aren't claiming to be a horse.

We can still state that horses are very different to seahorse, and mentioned those differences, without any fear.

I agree with you re trans woman Joan, but not transwoman. To me it's like seahorse, which is not a type of horse.

Have you ever heard the phrase "Man Fucks Woman; Subject Verb Object" (Catharine MacKinnon)? Here we have an analogy - Man Becomes Woman; Subject Verb Object.

Good god, this.

I've always thought it was about using woman as a costume to get something they want, but it's about women being objects and not human.

I don't believe in the ideology behind 'trans' because I passionately believe that a) women are people and b) therefore gender (aka sex roles) should be abolished.

In my own understanding of the world the concept of transitioning rests on sexist stereotypes and requires individualist solutions that reinforce women's oppression under male supremacist social systems.

To say that a person is a trans woman is to say that a woman is a set of body parts and stereotypes and that a man can therefore transition into being a woman by adopting some of those body parts and stereotypes.

Further once a male person is accepted as a type of woman, despite the objections of women, the idea that woman is what man says it is is reinforced, the idea we have no right to define ourselves or our own boundaries is reinforced. Have you ever heard the phrase "Man Fucks Woman; Subject Verb Object" (Catharine MacKinnon)? Here we have an analogy - Man Becomes Woman; Subject Verb Object.

I am not an object.

And that is why I find it violating and dehumanising to be forced to accept the phrase trans woman.

Same. Used to. Not any more.

I don't know why people have a problem with just saying transwoman

Because a) it's compelled speech and b) it appropriates my sex and c) it's just one stage in the endless mission creep.

I. Will. Not. Use. That. Word.

I don't know why people have a problem with just saying transwoman because it has the same meaning anyway.

It depends on the situation, on FWR, or when talking about feminism is general, it leads to the discussion - "feminism is for all women, including TW". I've seen plenty of threads derailed by having to explain why a TW isn't included in the class of women. Other discriptions that don't include the word women make that clear.

Also, the words we are allowed to use are constantly changing - transexual, transvestite, MtF, trans*, tranwoman, trans woman. I believe it's part of the male desire to control women. They are trying so hard to stop us talking about diffences between the sexes, which is essential in feminism.

I thought it was banned because of the 'identified' bit. As in they don't identify as trans, they are trans?

Yeah this is the way I took it as well. I thought the phrase 'trans identified male' kind of has connotations of pretending or that it suggests that they aren't genuine. I don't know why people have a problem with just saying transwoman because it has the same meaning anyway.

I've stuck that very specific point in its own thread in the hope of a response...

This is the feminist section, socialisation will near enough always be relevant to the post.

Yes, exactly.

Sorry, cross posts. It seems to take me so long to write posts now.

Yeah, that's the bit I'm with. Sex is at the root of feminism. It's impossible to have a meaningful feminist discussion and not talk about sex. Sex based oppression is the reason why women and girls need feminism. It is all about recognising that.

But still, in the queue in Sainsbury's, if the person is behaving in a way that they would have been socialised into, then their sex is relevant.

This is the feminist section, socialisation will near enough always be relevant to the post.

BOO32. Oh I don't know, I don't think anyone does, even MN. I thought it was ok to refer to biology when it is relevant to the discussion but not when it isn't?

Therefore if I want to talk about why I want a female HCP it's relevent to distinguish between male and female people. But I may be deleted for highlighting a transpersons sex if it's just a discussion about people in a queue at Sainsbury's?

Afai understand it (though that isn't much tbh...) baroque, male/female transperson is only okay if you are referring to the identified gender of the person and not their sex. Unless it is in a case where their sex is strictly relevant - which is then the bit that baffles me, as surely in FWR it is always relevant what sex the person is.

Ah, Baroque that's a different emphasis than in the OP. I think I'll just carry on lurking mostly as it is so bloody confusing.

TIM is banned because it refers to natal sex

I thought it was banned because of the 'identified' bit. As in they don't identify as trans, they are trans?

I was told male/female transperson wouldn't necessarily be deleted.

Or has that changed now?

Sex is binary. You either know this or you don't. Where is the 'middle'?

I've not read the full thread so apologies if this has already been covered. I am trying to work out what the rules mean.

If TIM is banned because it refers to natal sex, then what is okay about transwomen? It is implying transitioning from male. In fact, as soon as the word trans is used you are referring to the fact that the person's presentation (most likely) won't match their sex (using stereotypes).

Does it also mean that we need to pretend Bruce Jenner didn't exist and Caitlyn always did?