New guidelines - we aren't allowed to refer to natal sex

Gibberty - stop trying to ‘educate’ us about the different ‘types’ of women there are. Ive noticed you do this a lot. ‘Women’ is not a selection of categories for you to choose from. It’s not a novelty catalogue for you to pick the kind you want to be. Women have female dna and anatomy. It’s not an umbrella term for a species with variations of biology.

I'm totally confused - is this the last word from MNHQ or is there more tweaking? Can we have an update on the guidelines if so. I'm comfortable refering to transwomen or transgender women but will not be dictated to any further. Transwomen are not in the same category as natal women and there must be the right and means to state that clearly and simply without screams of transphobia or ridiculous linguistic gymnastics.
KateMumsnet

Hi all

It looks as though some people haven't seen our posts earlier, and may have the wrong end of the stick. To reassure you, we've been discussing the collective nouns that posters use to describe trans people as a group; we're not preventing anyone from asserting that transwomen are born male, or expressing a gender critical position.

We do, though, think it's right to be civil when we refer to other people. Trans people find their bio sex distressing on some level - so let's not have a collective expression for them which insistently defines them by their bio sex.

Look, we honestly do know that words are important here; but this is a complex issue, and it's probable that everyone will have to live with some contradictions and compromises in order for a dialogue to take place.

Thanks
MNHQ

It does look like reddit is going to be our choice unless we can get a forum up and running. MN is closing down free speech so we need somewhere new.

@samanthastephens

I was initially surprised by the term "minority" but in fairness MN will know what proportion of their customers do or don't care about this.

certainly my real life experience has been that women haven't thought about it or don't care about it. That's with me being very careful about raising the topic with anyone.

I thought the statement was a joke, but now reading here I realise it is not. Hmmm. I have recently joined, but will not have anything to do with an organisation that claims, first off, that we are a "minority". I don't think Justine got that right at all. And not just here but in the real world, women know these males are not women. It's not an affront to them any more than saying that the sun is not water. It's just a fact. Secondly, this statement seems to want to appear 'objective', striking a balance between these words we say and those words they say.

Let's examine the words:

Women TAs
TiM cis
TIF TERF

On the left-hand column you have a descriptive that is biologically correct and that does not capitulate to the madness which demands that women carry out males' fantasies. All my mates who are trans would not deny that they are trans, nor that their birth sex is altered in any way. So these terms are fair and truthful. On the right-hand column, you have a term that places gender as a 'natural' (cis) and a meaningless label to refer to anyone who disagrees with the trans narrative that is also similar to 'turf'. It is meaningless because by pointing out reality I am not excluding men from living, as per their lie. By calling the sun extremely hot, I am not slandering cold or blue objects. It is a fact that should not be mandated into a perverse distortion. Add to this that most of the people they call TERFs are not even radical feminists. Again, meaningless, inaccurate, and hence offensive.

Left hand, descriptor based on fact, right hand, epithets. How Justine Roberts sees this as a "compromise" amazes me. It is like saying that if a cybercriminal breaks into your bank account and steals your entire savings and the "compromise" is that he gives 50% of it back.

Did you know that the female athlete Caitlyn Jenner was awarded medals in the men's category?!

Crikey, she must be really strong to compete with the men. That's amazing. And just goes to show that if she can do it, well, other women can too.

Reckon you'll get used to it though lighthouse. I intend to get used to it.

I worry for my boy too. Although he's already well versed in the gender debate, age 8. Mainly because he lives in a house full of women.

does this mean I have to join reddit? It confuses my eyes!!

This is fucking rediculous. A feminism board where men's poor little feelings can't be offended and biology gets rewritten. We may as well just give up and agree with flat earthers and anti-vax

I have a boy. I fear for him in a world where he's likely to grow up wondering where his cervix is and whether his willy is a girls one or a boys one.

Men don't only want to rule things... they want to fuck it up and us good little women will be called upon to clear up the mess behind them

@averylongtimeasspartacus

Ahem .....under his eye .

So if “woman” means anyone who believes they are a woman, even if they have a body that doesn’t match the “ideal”, is there a word for someone who belongs to the class of people who have the type of body/biology which has or could have the potential to produce large immobile gametes and gestate young?

Such a word is probably needed for ease of discussion in healthcare, health research, workplace discrimination based upon pregnancy potential....(those are just off the top of my head, not an exhaustive list). Such a word would need to encompass transmen as well as the above described subset of “women”.

Holy fuckbiscuits.
This is all a load of cock.

Can anyone help me out here. Does anyone know of any other place anywhere in the UK or Europe where natal sex is not allowed to be mentioned? OR is it just MN?

I very rarely post, but I thought I should add my voice to those saying that it is unacceptable to tie everyone up in knots with ridiculous policing of language mandated by a vocal and aggressive minority of men.

Mumsnet seem to think they are striking a fair balance, but they are trying to force people to lie, and in doing so will ultimately kill any chance of sensible discussion of these issues. I will not being staying if that happens.

This is scary, scary stuff. We can no longer state a fact. Please think about what you’re doing here mumsnet.

Did you know that the female athlete Caitlyn Jenner was awarded medals in the men's category?! How did that happen then? Seems bizarre that a woman would be allowed in a men's race. She was also a member of a men-only golf club. How did she bypass the rules? She's a pioneer.

I really do think the parallels with history are chilling.

Yep. Not for the reasons you think though. You can't change sex. Male people are born, live and die male. And you are trying to force the biologically oppressed class of females to erase ourselves to pander to the oppressor class. Have a little think about that.

Hi Dhal - apparently, that's still fine, you of course can refer to yourself as female.

You just have to be aware that the definition of female doesn't always have to include anything that the wrong and outdated science would have classed as 'female biology', and that female biology, according to some very loud voices, can often include a penis in that inventory of 'body bits'.

So female = whatever you want it to be!

Sorry, and all.

(NB: Someone will be along soon to say 'whatabout the females without a uterus/boobs?. Old-fashioned science used to still be able to identify and class the majority of the world apart from intersex - NOT trans- as 'female' whilst being able to easily exclude male biology from the definition.)

We will also take the fight off the internet and group ourselves into real life discussion groups.

Absolutely.

Screw Mumsnet. Lets go somewhere else

The pub (a real one)?

Wtf does natal sex mean

Interestingly if you type natal woman or natal sex in Google it just comes up with loads of transgender stuff.

This word policing is quite ridiculous. It is a feminist board on a mainly female website. If people find the words upsetting they don't have to visit the forum but we all know it isn't about that. Some brave and stunning people don't like females talking. They may be crowing right now but if this site continues with this cowardly idiocy, there are other places online to talk. We will also take the fight off the internet and group ourselves into real life discussion groups.

I hope we can find a work around. I rather like bluescreens suggestion for brave and stunning ladies.

'I can't get my head around the people that seem to genuinely think men can change sex and become women. What on earth?'

Or is it that they are saying that a transwoman was really female all along, because ladybrain, but was born 'in the wrong body'? Either way it's a load of nonsense and I can't believe so many people seem to believe it's real. Gaslighting bullshit

Screw Mumsnet. Lets go somewhere else