Why are the public still not engaged with the gender debate?

A type of wishful thinking

The Illusion

It’s an arguing technique I see a lot. A statement will be made in a post that twists the tone/content of previous posts into the worst possible scenario, which the person then accuses the thread of.
It immediately puts the other person on the back foot because they then feel like they have to apologise, justify, defend or explain why accusation x is not so...

...When accusation x was never made in the first place/scenario c never happened. Then when you ask for an example of the behaviour that people are saying is incredibly common they are unable to provide it. Despite it apparently being incredibly common.

It’s a widespread technique.

Keep the focus on children's safeguarding and go from there - the aggressive male cross dressers who want to creep around women and children's spaces have conflated their sexual entitlement with that of the gay community - so it's an unholy mess

Agree this is where the focus should be for now. Safeguarding is where organisations are arguably in breach of laws, policies, risk assessment and guidelines and are accountable and can be put under scrutiny.

I subscribe to the Lisa Muggeridge theory of this - top jobs at third sector orgs are filled by left-leaning graduates of the elite liberal academy, which has been taken over by postmodernism.

Yes, I love Lisa's take on things and I have no doubt she is right - she would know as well in her work. People are hamstrung by so-called professional codes of conduct that protect the vested interests providing the services, not the users of the services. Plus there's the whole budgetary issue. I recall her saying that vulnerable teens aren't referred for residential care when they need it, because it's deemed too expensive - so they are left to fend on their own. It's despicable conduct.

Re the supposed hostility - I too would love concrete examples It's very easy to lay false accusations - the MO of many trolls btw.

The wolf did like to make out he was Grandma in Red Riding Hood who, by questioning, was able to spot the pretender.

enabled by organisations who can't critically think for themselves. One must wonder what these people get paid for

I subscribe to the Lisa Muggeridge theory of this - top jobs at third sector orgs are filled by left-leaning graduates of the elite liberal academy, which has been taken over by postmodernism.

It's an elite social closure thing - the right-leaning ones go into politics of their side and industry; the left-leaning go into politics of their side and the third sector. So we have a bunch of clueless, pomo-addled posh people heading up all our big charities and voluntary orgs. All so far removed from their service users that they don't even know when they're harming them.

Personal attacks on posters speaking out against hostility and prejudice to trans people are just awful to watch unfolding and seem inevitable and relentless.

Can you give some examples? I keep seeing this type of view stated (that there is huge hostility/ abuse/terrible transphobia) on here but I dont seem to actually see it when I’m on the boards. Personal sniping seems to get zapped sharpish.

What I do see a lot is robust disagreement and then the poster claiming that this is hate speech. Disagreeing with someone is not hateful. Not validating someone’s factually incorrect belief is not hateful.

Personal attacks should always be reported to the mod team, who have always taken a dim view of hatred directed towards a specific poster/incitement towards a group.

In general I’d say these boards were pro woman, pro children, rather than anti trans. And again, a pro woman stance is interpreted as hateful, which I find very interesting.

Then they go pale. Then they rage. Then they say "How do I find out more about this?"

Yes, an appropriately outraged response at the removal of basic safeguarding for children - enabled by organisations who can't critically think for themselves. One must wonder what these people get paid for?

Safeguarding of children sets everyone's spidey senses tingling.

I've told dozens of people about the Guides and mixed sex overnight accommodation (with no informing the parents) and people just won't believe you until you get out your phone and show them the proof.

Then they go pale. Then they rage. Then they say "How do I find out more about this?"

Keep the focus on children's safeguarding and go from there - the aggressive male cross dressers who want to creep around women and children's spaces have conflated their sexual entitlement with that of the gay community - so it's an unholy mess

Unless you are made aware of what is happening and then delve in and have a look on-line this will all just be passing you by.

The insidious way that things are changing e.g. sex is now gender, parents not being made aware when a trans child is in a member of a girl guide group sharing with girls etc is a real issue. 'Small' things like the announcement by Cancer Research re 'everyone with a cervix' will generally not be noticed by women generally unless they are already aware of what is going on.

I also perceive that when there is a phone in, like LBC today, the presenter (in this case Shelagh Fogarty) didn't seem to have grasped the issue nor understood it from a womans (XY) point of view.

I think that the people you are trying to attract read some of the things that are posted in thread and realise that a lot of it is just offensive. All the reasonable points you are making are then lost as people dismiss you due to the people who make you look like hateful people just an idea

I posted on another thread about talking to my DBs about the topic during a rare but lovely gathering of the clan last week.

I outlined the changes since the days of the old school transsexuals, and they were horrified. They are devoted husbands and fathers and immediately grasped the main issues.

I was impressed that DB1, who isn't into sexual politics at all but is very involved with sport, was already incensed about the effects on women's sports and could name some of the male medal winners.

IRL people think it's so obvious dangerous, unfair or out there they think it's not really happening/going to happen so can be ignored for now.

100% this.

Prunemerealgood and sixty2018 make good points.

The tone on the GC threads and from a core of GC regular posters is intensely hostile and prejudiced, in my experience.

Outside of mn, and I think within wider mn but beyond the GC bubble, people are curious, interested, a bit baffled at times, and generally disposed to learn more about trans experiences and lives.

The wider population are unaware of the radical activism on either side, which I think is probably ok. There are unpleasant extremes on both, and neither's views are things I want to be hearing about, because they are both appalling.

The closing of ranks when well known GC posters have abhorrent posts deleted has been eye opening. Personal attacks on posters speaking out against hostility and prejudice to trans people are just awful to watch unfolding and seem inevitable and relentless.

The reaction to MNs laudable attempt to keep the peace says it all really.

Spartacus my arse!

My MIL (Guardian reader, very pro gay rights ) was in the “old school transsexuals” bracket. She was saying essentially “ well I don’t mind how people want to live their lives “ ( of course, reasonable) until DH pointed out that this means male people with male sex organs being able to enter changing rooms, loos, refuges etc. Then her face was 😮
Most people I know either think that self id etc will never happen because it is so ridiculous, or they think all trans people have had their penis and testicles removed, and are only interested sexually in men. Essentially they assume that they are hyper feminine gay men.

But Jonbb what about the people it does affect who don't have a voice? Prisons is a big one- the women there have a far higher than statistically normal history of abuse and are pretty much the definition of vulnerable. Who listens to them?

Perhaps it's because most people think as it doesn't affect them it's none of their business. Which is absolutely my view too.

When men realise it means the end of urinals they will start taking an interest, problem being it will probably be too late.

I agree. It is unpleasant.

But it brings the clicks in. And so it’s in newspaper interests to print trans articles with plenty of photos.

Most people live and let live. I think the issues in sport or safe spaces aren't focused on. A lot of people have sympathy with gender dysmorphia that can cause cripppling depression. As a tolerant society you might not agree with everyone's decisions but can understand it's not your life like with religion or politics or moral issues you may strongly disagree with. I think there is sympathy because a lot of trans are persecuted against if you look at the number of those that have to turn to prostitution in for example Thailand, Turkey and parts of the US to name a few.

I suspect that the vast majority of people have far more pressing concerns of their own.