Honour system

The more I think about this the more I see that trans activists and GC feminists have an awful lot in common. Both groups think that gender stereotypes are BS and people should be able to express themselves as individuals. Wouldn't it be great if we could do away with the gender binary and just treat everyone as individuals?

Unfortunately, two things get in the way of this utopian ideal:

1. Biology
2. Male violence

They are the reasons it's important that we can express that transwomen are biologically male.
The honour system worked when there was a very small number of people, but it seems that the ever-widening spectrum under the trans umbrella won't be happy until biology is denied and male violence dismissed as silly hysteria.

I agree MsMcWoodle they won’t admit they made a mistake. The other problem, as I see it, is that those that are happy with this law, and are pushing for ever more changes in their favour, have a lot of financial and political clout. They have the money and connections, to send representatives to the top political meetings here and all over the world, and so are able to influence both national and international policy. Feminist women of course do not have such financial and political clout (after all we are not part of the old boys network lol), so we have to rely on strength in numbers, donations etc. I think this is why those that push trans ideology are so frightened of women being able to speak freely, they know that if the majority of women knew what has and is going on, most women would oppose it. They do not want women to stand together and stand up for our rights, so we get all the appeals for sympathy, etc, directed at us from these men, it really is a form of manipulation that must be resisted in my view. The way forward I believe is women standing together with other women and not being side-tracked by the emotional manipulation many of these activists employ. The law cannot realistically support sex based laws, and at the same time allow someone to legally change sex based on what stereotypes they feel an affinity towards, the two are not compatible. In some feminist meetings I know there has been talk about setting something formal up to challenge these laws and re-establish laws based on sex not gender, and I for one will offer my full support, and am sure many other women will also.

Artemis7 - totally agree. I think that this was actually brought in without giving women a second thought. Now, some politicians who supported it must be realising their mistake, but they can never own up to having made a mistake.

@Giddy Women have a right to say no.

‘I can clearly state that I don't like the fact that men can legally change their sex. The whole thing is fucked. Sometimes, laws are really bad.’

Completely agree. This law was brought in without women’s consent, even though it effects us. The publicity it is now getting will bring it to the attention of many women, who were previously not aware of what this law actually means; the fact that performing stereotypes means you can change legally sex. The implications of this for women and girls and society as a whole, should now be brought out into the open, and the fact that this law was not a good idea and why needs to be made perfectly clear. It needs to be argued why this was such a regressive law from the outset, and why it needs to go, I think there are some feminists trying to arrange something along this lines.

That's what, five years ago, I thought it meant to be trans, HomefromtheHills.

Now, damned if I know.

By TRA definitions I'd be trans myself and so would most people I know, but that's about as useful as saying, 'Ooh, we're all a bit OCD/on the autism spectrum somewhere!' and totally missing the point of a actual diagnosis, which is that it's extreme enough to get in the way of everyday life.

Sorry, off-topic.

That's the difference I see between transsexuals and transgender (broad - very broad these days - term).

The former is not so much about beauty and idealisation. It is about being who you are and fitting in.

Many transsexuals are not some feminine beauty icon. I am nowhere near to one but have had little problem living day to day because it is not why I transitioned.

There is a huge difference between the objective of becoming yourself and the one of becoming a woman.

One is living and the other acting up to a preconceived image. From the inside the differences between the two are stark.

The girl babies killed at birth because of their sex, the girls who suffer FGM, the two women murdered in the UK every week by their male partner... Women and girls are oppressed because of their biology, not their looks.

As if unattractive (by patriarchal standards) women aren’t really women. Fuck that noise.

That just shows the whole thing up for how reductive and sexist the ideology is. That they think it’s only beautiful trans women that pass.

How utterly offensive.

Giddy, I think what Albadross was trying to get across was that being beautiful has got nothing to do with whether you're female. One of my relatives is an international catwalk model. Beautiful. He's absolutely stunning. Still a bloke.

Giddy, most trans people may be nice and would not knowingly inflict harm.

The problem is self ID has the potential to be abused by those with evil intent.

They will be few. They may not be trans. But if even one of them uses the relaxing of laws then the consequences will impact upon all trans people because the insistence on change will be viewed as the cause.

Trans people are decent people - well then they can show that by understanding the concerns of women and being willing to show some give and take rather than take and take which seems to be what is being expected at the moment.

To change the dialogue insistence on our demands needs to be replaced with compromise and some humility.

What is being insisted upon now just will not be acceptable to many women. Rightly so. The tone of the argument has to change.

@Albadross

Sorry you were raped, but you have taken what I said out of context I was referring to the fact you cannot tell many Trans Woman, as they are beautiful,

Mancheeze, realistic achievable aims are to stop self ID, retain as many protections in it as possible, clarify the interaction between the Equality Act and the GRA that will help ringfence women's rights and define and enshrine in law the meaning of the same sex exemptions that rightly exist.

You will get wide support for that.

This happens now. It has for decades. No one is going to go round asking to see a GRC or BC.

No, but if women see a man come into their space they can have him legally removed. Under the GRA, a man who deludes himself into thinking he's a woman can go into a sex segregated space and women can't object and call the cops and have him legally removed.

The cops show up, the man says he's a woman and/or has an ID with 'female' indicated, and the cops tell the women 'tough shit.'

The man then commits a sexual assault!

This is what happened here in Canada with Christopher "jessica' Hambrook. Guy said he was woman, got into TWO diff women's shelters and then raped women in each shelter.

It's not fair to women and girls. That's the point.

The whole GRA has to go in favour of something that protects the gender nonconforming aspects of ALL people. We shouldn't be discriminating in areas like housing or employment for those men and women who don't perform masculinity and femininity but no legal sex changes.

I should add for clarity that I am one of the 4850 transsexuals.

I have posted on here recently under another user name (which I was unable to reuse or I would have done so).

I say this as I do not want to appear to be deceiving anyone.

But I am not planning on posting a lot. So don't worry.

However, I have been concerned to see free debate getting stifled on here by fear. I understand that fear but it should not be allowed to stop debating questions that need to be asked.

Feel free to call me any names you like.

Words are just words and if trans people cannot live with them then I have no idea how they are ever going to live a long and happy life after transition.

Because in the real world not everything is going to be about you. Best to understand that now.

Gibberty, if they are that desperate for protection then why are none of them applying for a GRC now under the current rules?

Only almost exactly the number predicted by doctors in 2004 when the GRA was passed (just under 5000 transsexuals) have applied.

All those wanting self ID could do this now if legal status was that vital.

So why aren't they?

Is it the £140? Or the fact that it might take a few months to happen? Or is it just too much hassle? Or is it the need to explain why you want this to a therapist?

Self ID will involve paying money and a wait until it happens. Hassle changing all documents and seeing a lawyer (instead of a doctor) will still be there and might also be what everyone else is asked to live with if it happens.

Only seeing a therapist seems to be the one factor that will vanish entirely if self ID comes in as demanded.

The one thing that might go some way to reassuring women that these people wanting to legally become recognised as women are both serious and do not have any other issues. And the check that might keep out predatory men with nefarious motives who if it is made so easy will find it easy to deceive.

This one thing is not much to ask surely.

So again why have only 4850 out of the half a million trans people done the hard yards to get a GRC? And why should be just hand one over to those who desperately want one but only if handed to them?

the legal right for men to identify as women and enter womens spaces.

This happens now. It has for decades. No one is going to go round asking to see a GRC or BC.

Giddy I was raped and I'm not beautiful. I didn't realise that being beautiful was so risky 🙄

@MsMcWoodle
"rapey nature of some transactivists, "

Just how many rapes by trans activists in women's spaces have there actually been ?
Trans Women are more at risk of being raped or assaulted by using male spaces, Many trans women are beautiful and you cannot tell they are Trans yet you expect them to use male spaces,
This whole situation has been blown out of all proportion by Anti Trans groups,

I can clearly state that I don't like the fact that men can legally change their sex. The whole thing is fucked. Sometimes, laws are really bad.

Give an inch, take a mile sort of thing. Men have shown women CONSISTENTLY and SYSTEMATICALLY they cannot be trusted on any honour system.

I think gender identity legislation is a BAD idea.

See the new thread I just posted about Gavin Grimm's case where you have a judge interpreting Title IX (legal protection of females on the basis of sex) in the most batshit crazy way as to avoid dealing with this very question.

For example it is lawful to ban a trans women from applying for certain jobs such as a rape crisis counsellor. These exemptions are in place to protect women from abuse.

What abuse would that be, Daim? Why do you think women might be thought to not want them as a rape counsellor?

"The honour system has been blown out of the water by the aggressive approach of the extreme trans lobby. If there's no gatekeeping then any man with any intentions can walk into the women's showers or psychiatric ward and we're not supposed to protest."

Has it? Or have trans people decided they need legal protection against the hostility some gender critical feminists have been stirring up. Chicken. Egg. Who can really tell?

The honour system has been blown out of the water by the aggressive approach of the extreme trans lobby. If there's no gatekeeping then any man with any intentions can walk into the women's showers or psychiatric ward and we're not supposed to protest.

That's intrinsically very hostile. There have always been very good reasons to suspect the motives of any visibly male bodied person in spaces where women are naked or receiving intimate care, regardless of what that person may say.