Honour system

And the possibility that R was privately behaving to wife and children in some of the ways shown by other middle-aged transitioners is also an unpleasant thought.

I do look at stories from other families of late transitioned men for balance, but the 'fell in love with a new woman, and it's ME!' theme is always a possibility.

I'm permanently divided about this, frankly. I don't know how well R's wife and children have coped with it, long term, nor how things really went for R post-transition. I can only look back at the kindly hippy-type I used to know and assume some of that stayed the same whatever the pronouns.

Before the melodramatic personality-fest types took over the press, I'd also assumed that most trans males were probably a bit like R or like the very tweedy don I knew, not the porn-influenced/misguided miniskirts type.

The porn side of it and the ridiculousness and the sheer venom around 'trans-exclusionary language' has all been an unpleasant eyeopener, really.

Dodo Ive known one MtF since that person was tiny, 50 years ago. I also know the family so hurt by it all. I've never heard anyone use female pronouns about this MtF, nor about the other MtF I know unless they are actually there to hear. No one wants to hurt them. Doesn't mean we aren't aware of reality.

"Bugger, just re-read and see I used 'him' when R would have preferred 'her'. MNHQ feel free to edit if you need to. I knew 'him' years longer than I knew 'her'.".

Thank you DodoPatrol. In the face of nastiness on here, that is heartwarming

Bugger, just re-read and see I used 'him' when R would have preferred 'her'. MNHQ feel free to edit if you need to. I knew 'him' years longer than I knew 'her'.

I'm no longer in touch with my MtF trans friend as they moved away. Wish I could ask him to test whether it worked just as well hovering at the edge of the Gents (in skirt and make-up, natch) and politely saying to a friend, 'Would you mind checking if it's empty before I nip in?' like he'd done in the Ladies.

I suspect most men, being decent blokes, would say, just as we did, 'Sure, you're fine, in you go and I'll keep an eye out.'

They're murdered by men though. Not feminists.

YY TokenBritPoshOfCourse. And by the same principle, every murderer could be trans too.

I expect we're about to find out that they all mysteriously are, and have been waiting to express their authentic inner identity until the government made it possible for them to easily identify out of a male prison into a female one where they can play power games.

I mean, for all we know, every victim of murder ever could be trans. How would we know?

Indeed.

YY TokenBritPoshOfCourse. And by the same principle, every murderer could be trans too.

Why is it that thoughtless, hurtful comments of that nature are considered OK and allowed to stand when many threads currently look like swiss cheese because someone broke the "no calling male people male" rule?

A question that occurs to me regularly.

I mean, for all we know, every victim of murder ever could be trans. How would we know?

Ah so the trans murder victims are Schrodinger’s trans who may or may not exist and we can’t ask them about their gender feels in account of being too dead.

Crystal clear then.

No. Most comparisons are biased. The number of murders committed tends to look at trans people across the umbrella but it is often not known whether victims are trans so only the number of transsexual victims gets reported. They compare apples with pears.

Gibberty, the briefest of Googles will help you out there. It’s true.

No bewilderness was claiming that transgender people, both male and female, are more likely to be murderers than be murdered.

Just how many rapes by trans activists in women's spaces have there actually been ?

Not transactivists, but at my university SU bar, where previously set aside spaces for women have been made "gender" neutral, sexual assaults have gone up exponentially. Of course there's few police reports, and those that are made are no crimed pretty quickly, because generally the young women are drunk and haven't "kept themselves safe". I do find it strange that it's allegedly pro-trans people who are suggesting that it would be trans people causing the problem and not predatory men abusing the system. I wonder why that might be?

Trans Women are more at risk of being raped or assaulted by using male spaces

This is often stated as proven fact, but I have personally seen no proof of it. So, by your own standards of proof, it never happens and is therefore not a problem, therefore trans women are completely safe using male spaces and should do so. The suggestion that trans women might use male spaces comes from you. Do you see how this works now? How utterly disingenuous the argument is?

"Since transgender people are more likely to be murderers in the UK than murdered I think it is quite clear which came first, male violence or women's fear of male violence."

That's a sweeping generalisation. What is the source?

Good post Prawn. Daim misunderstands a lot of things.

Daimbars, you fundamentally misunderstand the honour system. It's on the transsexual person to honour their access to our spaces by using the facilities quickly without intruding on others or seeking validation in any way,

Any weird or overtly male behaviour and the honour system crumbles. Men who have transitioned purely socially or not all the time don't qualify.

So in effect an honour system to me is spotting a trans person using a female space but honouring their right to be there as genuine.

Another odd shift of responsibility from the transsexual to the female.

Traditionally the honor system consisted of transsexuals behaving honorably by using the facilities quickly and efficiently without trying to chat women up or take pictures or peer over or under the stalls. Basically the honor system means not doing the things males and transgender persons have sometimes been arrested for doing.

Also the idea that pretty = woman is sexist and stupid, the idea that most transwomen will meet a beauty ideal framed around being female is unrealistic (again, setting people up to fail and then get angry and frustrated when they do), and the idea that being pretty is why women are raped is just mind bogglingly clueless (and hurtful and offensive to anyone who ever has been raped).

Why is it that thoughtless, hurtful comments of that nature are considered OK and allowed to stand when many threads currently look like swiss cheese because someone broke the "no calling male people male" rule?

Words are just words and if trans people cannot live with them then I have no idea how they are ever going to live a long and happy life after transition.

Because in the real world not everything is going to be about you. Best to understand that now.

Yep, and I don't mean that in a cruel way. Setting the expectation for anyone that their life won't have to involve hearing things they don't want to hear and that everyone will always be kind is a recipe for disappointment, because nobody's life is free of those things. Whatever inner doubt the person is trying to soothe by demanding verbal compliance from others will always be there, and setting the expectation that everyone they encounter can be forced to play along is only going to end in frustration when it turns out that people are people and not so easy to control.

Has it? Or have trans people decided they need legal protection against the hostility some gender critical feminists have been stirring up. Chicken. Egg. Who can really tell?

Since transgender people are more likely to be murderers in the UK than murdered I think it is quite clear which came first, male violence or women's fear of male violence.

Trans Women are more at risk of being raped or assaulted by using male spaces, Many trans women are beautiful and you cannot tell they are Trans yet you expect them to use male spaces

Those who "identify as women" and pass are more likely to be the "Haley from Corrie" types rather than the glamour puss types. Those people are not at more risk of being raped or assaulted because men generally don't want to nor feel entitled to have sex with male people. If you think otherwise, please produce the evidence.