trans women showing solidarity with women

The language that would cause your friend to be shunned and ridiculed was introduced by thebewilderness

I don't have control over others words and behaviour. I think you're going to have to explain the link before I can in any way accept that my words here make other people do things to trans people.

I (we, most people on this board) advocate for people to be able to wear and behave how they like, as long as it doesn't harm others. It's what I teach my children.

I’m not asking anyone to not contribute. I was simply making an observation that frequently people will assume things based on their ideology.

Often people have had it explained to them repeatedly what is being said and what isn’t but they persist in ‘what GC people are saying/think is’ statements when nothing of the kind has actually been said, it’s simply what they have assumed some statements mean.

Knowing what you do not know is often more important that knowing what you do.

Wow OP I thought I had given you a thoughtful and considered response but okay then.

The language that would cause your friend to be shunned and ridiculed was introduced by thebewilderness - but I guess in your mind it's acceptable for posters to use this language if they're in a bad mood.

I have trans friends who think they are pro-women yet cannot in any way be gender critical because it conflicts with their sense of self and so act in a way that is damaging to women as a sex class.

Just as an aside, do you have natal female friends who act in such a way that propagates gender stereotypes? (I assume it is this propagation of stereotypes and an inference that it's "who they are" that you consider damaging - please do correct me if needs be.)

If so, do you hold your natal female friends to such high standards?

Trans people are like other people. Most are ok and some are absolute dickheads.

YY to this.

I think the attraction of the "existential threat" and "trans women are not women" arguments is their straightforward logic

You're absolutely right, it can be exhausting and confusing trying to walk the line of nuance when there is a simple, blanket solution presenting itself so powerfully! I think it's important not to lose sight of the nuance though; if any one of us succumbs to black and white thinking, well... history tells us that doesn't end well.

Yes it does Shots, thanks :) I didn't mean it to sound like an accusation at all, just it really does bear clarifying sometimes!

Don't let the agitators take away your moral standards though, okay? Whatever power you perceive them to hold and whatever harm you think they're doing, they're not worth you reconsidering what you think is right and wrong in relation to the huge, huge majority of trans people simply living their lives and wanting what is best for their community. Principles and all that.

I also have trans friends who are pro-women.

I have trans friends who think they are pro-women yet cannot in any way be gender critical because it conflicts with their sense of self and so act in a way that is damaging to women as a sex class. I have fallen out with some people over this issue and remained friends with others.

The analogy of religion is used a lot. My muslim friends never resent that I do not believe there is no true God but Allah, I do not cover my hair, nor do I fast in Ramadan. But they know I respect their rights to do all these things and I'll give them a Eid gift tomorrow.

Various lib fem and trans ally friends have fallen out with me for my gender critical views. In the main my trans friends know that we believe different things but that we can still interact as humans.

Trans people are like other people. Most are ok and some are absolute dickheads. The problem is that the dickheads claim to be helping the others and this is seductive.

It breaks my heart that posters on this forum want people like my friend to be feared, ridiculed and shunned

This comment completely twists what people are striving for on here.

I am gender critical. I don't want anyone to be ridiculed or shunned. I don't believe the vast majority of trans people are to be feared. I am polite to trans people when i meet them. Funnily enough I'd like to live in a society where everyone is safe and free to live their lives as they please, as long as they aren't hurting anyone.

yes I know that for many of you the fact she is a trans women means she can't be pro women.

I don't believe this at all.

I dearly wish more transwomen would roll up their sleeves and campaign about fgm, domestic abuse, rape conviction rates and rape culture and child marriage. Instead you have a proportion if women saying we mustn't centre female biology in feminism and it's even transphobic to talk about such things.

Anyone can be pro-women. We need more people to care about all these really serious issues for changes to be made.

"Had they been happy to work with us to try and establish a common framework where everyone's needs were considered and valued equally, then I think a lot more of us would still be more willing to talk."

@RatRolyPoly Who's "they"? Numerous members of the trans community have been here in the spirit of understanding and compromise. Could they not be the "they" who shaped your views? Need it be the loudmouths on Twitter?

Apologies - the "they" were the activist groups I referred to previously. The "loudmouths" are the ones agitating for change and having real effects on policy and potentially law, so they should be the ones working with women to bring about respectful, mutually agreeable terms, not just imposing their will above all else. Unfortunately they chose a different path and in doing so, have removed a lot of the respect and goodwill I also mentioned previously existed.

The trans people we see posting on on here (for example) are part of the other group I mentioned who were just happily living alongside the rest of the world in the status quo. They have only had to push themselves forward because of the activists' actions - which are having a detrimental effect on the "peaceful" (for want of a better word) trans community and women at large.

I hope that explains the "they" better.

Choose skepticism, logic, and reason.

"Trust in me" reminds me a little too much of Kaa's song in the Jungle Book.

Lovely post Rat.

OP at the end of the day if your trans friends appears genuinely pro woman you have the choice of trust or suspicion. Personally I would choose trust every time.

And for exactly the same reasons I will fight to ensure that women like that are not excluded from being described as a woman and allowed in female spaces, including when they haven't had surgery or hormones. For me that isn't about trans rights, it is a femist viewpoint in support of those women.

In other words, to support any natal male who identifies as a woman to be allowed in female spaces without any question.

It's a campaign to center all people who were born male but identify as women, no matter what their physical appearance or life experience, in the movement of feminism.

It minimizes what it means to be female to only an internal "identity," as it divorces feminism from the reality of biological sex.
It demands that the female struggle to overcome sex-based oppression now include and cater to members born in the opposite sex if they claim to be women. Despite them having no idea what it's like to have been born in a female body, and raised their whole lives as female.

I know which feminism I'm choosing, and it's the one for females.

That includes fighting all attempts to label women like that - all trans women - as male.

All trans women are male...
Why else would they "transition"?
Can natal females identify as "trans women"?

Had they been happy to work with us to try and establish a common framework where everyone's needs were considered and valued equally, then I think a lot more of us would still be more willing to talk.

Who's "they"? Numerous members of the trans community have been here in the spirit of understanding and compromise. Could they not be the "they" who shaped your views? Need it be the loudmouths on Twitter?

@RatRolyPoly There are a few broad schools of thought here on MN. The one I have most sympathy for (although it seems to be in the minority these days) is that transwomen are just getting on with their lives and that's all fine. Women have specific needs and requirements in everyday life, and sometimes it is problematic to have services for women and transwomen. And that self-ID might be a bit of an over-simplistic unhelpful suggestion on the part of the government that disproportionately disadvantages women.

That is where I started a matter of months ago.

However the incessant "mission creep" by the activist minority of the wider trans community has removed the goodwill and "rub along together" spirit I had, as I feel there is no viable solution that meets both groups' needs in this debate. I find myself now more hardline and fearful that that the "give an inch, take 10 miles" approach must be stopped before it can be started. I didn't do that, the activist minority did. They made their own bed, and did it on (unasked-for) behalf of the trans community at large who were just getting on with life.

Had they been happy to work with us to try and establish a common framework where everyone's needs were considered and valued equally, then I think a lot more of us would still be more willing to talk.

"And for exactly the same reasons I will fight to ensure that women like that are not excluded from being described as a woman and allowed in female spaces, including when they haven't had surgery or hormones. For me that isn't about trans rights, it is a femist viewpoint in support of those women.

That includes fighting all attempts to label women like that - all trans women - as male

Too many people here are portraying this as a clash between feminism and trans rights. It isn't. It is a clash between two very different types of feminism."

No, it is a clash between women, and the men who want to be them.

OP, I'm sure your friend is lovely :) She doesn't need to prove anything to other women; no woman does. There are no entry criteria for being suitably "pro woman" before you're allowed to be what you are. God knows there are enough women who couldn't give a stuff about feminism, other women, or even anyone but themselves! There are men like this too. That's the world we live in.

There are a few broad schools of thought here on MN. The one I have most sympathy for (although it seems to be in the minority these days) is that transwomen are just getting on with their lives and that's all fine. Women have specific needs and requirements in everyday life, and sometimes it is problematic to have services for women and transwomen. And that self-ID might be a bit of an over-simplistic unhelpful suggestion on the part of the government that disproportionately disadvantages women.

Then there are those who have a problem with the ideology. They stray from discussing what to do about the practical aspects of integrating trans people into society and fixate on their being acknowledged only as gender-non-conforming individuals of their natal sex. There are long threads belittling the personal and deeply held beliefs of trans people - with no positive practical outcome except spreading their dislike - and very rarely will such posters make even the slightest concession (such as using the term "transwoman" or neutral pronouns) to peaceful co-existence with those who think differently. They paint transgenderism as an existential threat to women in a way that goes beyond class analysis, and into (as a poster up thread even said), "if you friend believes xyz, she is part of the problem". That isn't class analysis, that is creating an enemy of the ideation of a whole group of people.

Aaaanyway, I'd like to think that however you find yourself settling in this debate, that nothing will sway you from seeing your friend as a valid human being who can live peacefully with their own sense of self. That doesn't mean you have to agree with the government's current policy on prisons, or with self-ID proposals, but I do hope you never come to see your friend as anything other than your friend.

People keep saying why are there so few posts about trans men. The answer is that many of the people speaking up are feminists and are naturally more interested in supporting women than men (ie trans men)

I think it's important that feminists like me, Rat and Gib challenge the extremist views on here.

Folks often say 'why don't the general, harmless trans people have a word with the TRAs that are spoiling everything'

So this is what is looks like when liberal feminism challenges radical feminism on trans issues. It's a discussion and a debate. Not sure how it could be seen as darvo

It's just not true. In fact it's a downright lie. It's one of the sweeping statements so often made on here which is completely unjust.

And I reported it

"I also had a good trans friend at school, never thought of her as anything other than a girl. She was very much pro woman but of course there was no question of her not being one of the girls. It breaks my heart that posters on this forum want people like my friend to be feared, ridiculed and shunned. That's why I always speak up on here even though my opinions are unpopular."

This. And for exactly the same reasons I will fight to ensure that women like that are not excluded from being described as a woman and allowed in female spaces, including when they haven't had surgery or hormones. For me that isn't about trans rights, it is a femist viewpoint in support of those women.

That includes fighting all attempts to label women like that - all trans women - as male.

Too many people here are portraying this as a clash between feminism and trans rights. It isn't. It is a clash between two very different types of feminism.

Oh for heaven's sake, a conversation online - on a website where tone and respectfulness are moderated for, no less - has nothing in common with domestic violence. It really is shameful to keep trotting out DARVO every time someone types a few words in disagreement.

Nice Darvo with a self righteous spin there, daimbars.