trans women showing solidarity with women

And no, I wasn’t saying MY is a representative for all trans people. I was saying MY is trans. There are other trans posters who are respected too, not all of them as gender critical as MY.

The post was in response to the OP which was worrying about this board being anti-trans and being GC meaning she had to stop being friends with her trans friend.

The intention was to point out that it isn’t about being trans, or hating trans people, it’s about the conflict with sex that gender represents and specifically the replacement of sex with gender and proposals for self ID... Those things are things being asked/lobbied for by activists, they are not anything to do with who trans people are.

What a weird post SMG. My point was it’s not about trans it’s an ideological difference hence MN hive mind isn’t mindlessly hating on all trans people because they are trans and that’s why posters hate them, which is what some people repeatedly try to imply.

I was not saying referring to MY by his choice of pronoun was a ‘demonstration of affection’, I was referring to the expressions of gratitude and flowers and gin he frequently gets on here... how weird...

Are you angry that MY preferred pronoun is ‘he’ or something?

And yes, MY and others are well thought of on here, because they have taken the time to contribute re women and girls, this is feminism chat and none of this has ever been about people being trans.

"The middle ground still exists; it just takes more fortitude to stand there on your own in no man's land speaking your own truth with your own voice, rather than seeking the comfort of a full group of supporters at either pole."

This. I probably surprised a few people by saying that I support the trans widows thread but I believe doing so is right.

If it was not possible for trans people to be well thought of on here then Miranda Yardley wouldn’t get so many demonstrations of affection and gratitude every single time he posts.

smh. If you think MY is in anyway representative of the majority of trans women out there then we are definitely on different planets. The very fact MY is happy to be called 'he' by you (or anyone), and that you are happy to do so AND refer to that as a demonstration of affection is perhaps one of the most remarkably bizarre things I've ever read.

The fact that it is held up as an example of how it is possible for trans people to be well thought of on here is a statement that is so far detached from reality that 'alternate universe' doesn't even begin to describe it.

There is never, ever going to be resolution for some people.

The middle ground no longer exists.

The middle ground still exists; that position in the debate where you can say of both sides "sometimes you're justified and sometimes you go too far", and for that position to be a true reflection of both your true understanding of the facts and your own personal sense of what is morally right.

The middle ground still exists; it just takes more fortitude to stand there on your own in no man's land speaking your own truth with your own voice, rather than seeking the comfort of a full group of supporters at either pole.

viewing trans women as automatically brave and heroic for living their truth

This isn't where we went wrong, this is class analysis gone wrong. This is thinking that a prevailing notion about a group speaks entirely for the individuals within it, with no scope for individual personhood. There's no shame in having fallen into it, it's human nature. It makes things easier to group people and to define them as such, and it takes effort to remember that every one among us has the capacity to be a hero and a villain. There are no angels or demons in this world; not when speaking of individual people. People are worth far more in all their complexity than as any oversimplified notion, regardless how positive, just as you said before speaking.

It's being able to analyse a class AND being able too see the individual merits and failings of a person OR their argument that is the middle ground.

@Offred
We have been advised by KateMumsnet this morning that class analysis is not permitted with regard to natal males who are covered by the EA 2010 in the protected category "gender reassignment".

The protected categories are age, disability, gender reassignment, race, religion or belief, sex, sexual orientation, marriage and civil partnership, and pregnancy and maternity.

thank you

Just wanted to say thanks to Rat for, as ever, such a fair minded balanced argument.

Standing ovation for @HarryLovesDraco

Excellently put.

The middle ground that I and many women used to occupy looks a bit like; using female pronouns out of courtesy, agreeing that trans women can use women's spaces if they are polite and respectful, viewing trans women as automatically brave and heroic for living their truth and therefore deserving of care and acceptance (into women's spaces)

Whereas I and many other women have realised that the trans women we welcomed into our middle ground have acted as a (largely unwitting) Trojan horse for some vile, misogynistic, aggressive, violent activism that seeks to completely colonise women's very existence. So the middle ground suddenly becomes a battleground in a way that women didn't anticipate, nor did the trans women who have been around for years and many of whom are finding this new activism as abhorrent as we are.

The middle ground therefore becomes part of the turf we are fighting over. It's not a neutral, reasonable space - it's the space where trans women are called truscum and terfs for asserting that dysphoria is a prerequisite for being trans. Where women who call their trans women friends 'she' are perplexed to be expected to accommodate 6 foot men in dresses into changing rooms with their teenage daughters. Where women who expect trans women to have genital surgery to be considered women are called hateful bigots. Where women who question whether men in beards and suits are women are told to suck on my lady dick.

Women are leaving the middle ground in droves because we are being forced out. Some of us might like to take our trans friends with us but they are caught too, the ones who come with us to the gender critical side are ostracised from their communities and hounded out of public life. Miranda yardley has been permanently banned from twitter and today hope Lye got a 12 hour ban for saying that he, himself, was male. This is an auto ban based on reports. Activists are reporting Hope's posts where he describes himself as male in targeted harassment.

The middle ground no longer exists.

Bah! The dangers of the written word

I was talking about that middle ground as the 'feminine' area where women are not expected to rock any boat. To be neither naughty nor nice, but to be 'just rght' appropriate to all occasions. You know, mothering, nurturing, naice

Many men and women reading the more angry, less polite posts here, seeing women stand up and shout for their rights, decide that 'that sort of woman' is not nice, is too aggressive, is not fulfilling her social contract.

That is half of the problem, as speaking outlined. Women were late to the party (and I include myself), we didn't notice or understand the full ramifications of the GRA etc and so the groudn work had been laid, terminology changed, expectations cemented way before we started to object. So now we are objecting more loudly than we would have had to and, because of that groundwork, sound less 'nice' less feminine. Add that to the reality that most women, when shouted at, are loathe to push back, especially if the person/organisation they are pushing against says that they are hurt by that push back.

It is insidious and it really irritates me that my 'built in' pleasantness is so hard to step out of, even when I know that what I am trying to push back against needs to be stopped.

I don't even know why an open, honest discussion about the ramifications of GRA and any changes is a bad thing. I only know that those who are trying to shut it down are, so far, having it all their own way!

Gotcha speaking; sorry Curious, I really wasn't meaning to be funny!

I meant what I said about rabble rousing as compliment actually; I thought your post was rabble rousing, in a good way!

But this just confirms we're talking at cross purposes. I don't think the middle ground I'm talking about is the middle ground you're talking about, because I'm talking about taking a stance on an issue that is not necessarily one of the two polar extremes, and you're talking about the middle ground between nice and nasty (I think). Perfectly valid of course, just not the same thing.

Yes, that's the long version, speaking

Not to worry, it felt more like you just wanted to do a bit of rabble rousing; no probs. Erm, how very nice of you!

But I think I was quite clear. I was talking about that gender trap, female socialisation. Many women have chosen to step outside the usual stereotype and to shout loudly, to fight their own corner rather than always think about how it will impact on others. You can choose to read what I typed with an open mind, or not!

I think that's a really balanced sentiment to take away from this speaking.

Curious I think we must be talking about different things when we talk about "holding the middle ground". I'm not sure what you're getting at about the females in the female sex having stopped being "just right" and now being... horrid? I don't know, I don't know what you're saying. Doesn't fell like we're talking about the same thing though.

Not to worry, it felt more like you just wanted to do a bit of rabble rousing; no probs.

The middle ground that I'm referring to though didn't get anyone into any mess. It's simply the reality that at this point there are two poles and neither has the monopoly on right and wrong. And that "right" and "wrong" lie somewhere in the middle ground and don't change as the wind blows. They're like flags and when you think you find them you have to weather the storm to stand by them, not be blown to one extreme or the other by the force of the gale around you.

Of course your friend can support women
But they can't be a woman. They can be a trans woman
IMO there will always be conflict until trans women accept that they are not women and that women need sex based spaces and rights

Holding the middle ground is what got women into this mess in the first place

Don't be too nice, don't be too horrid, be 'just right - like fucking Goldilocks!

Well, no! That's the problem for those activists rattling their sabres, wanting to inhabit the sex 'female'. The females who already live in that sex have stopped being 'just right' and have started shouting back!

And that includes shouting at other women who twist and mis represent what has been said on almost every tans thread ever! It's shameful!

Rat - yes. applies to both extremes of course.

Absolutely, in fact I think it's what pushes people to one extreme or the other! Hold the middle ground people :)