Calorie counting

Long rambly post, apologies

You are correct in that BMI doesn't account for athletic body types with high amounts of muscle mass leading to fit people being classed as overweight. However it is a guide at the end of the day.

I'm short with lots of muscle from my sporting days but I am carrying excess fat. I'm temporarily eating 1200 cal a day and exercising to get rid of the fat. I feel perfectly sated, my mood is fine and I have the energy to exercise.

I think there's a lot of misconceptions about what 1200 calories of food (and 2000 calories) actually looks like-look at these examples from MFP, blog.myfitnesspal.com/2000-calories-looks-like-infographic/

blog.myfitnesspal.com/1200-calories-looks-like-infographic/ . It can be a lot of food if you eat lots of fruit and veg with lean protein and things like porridge for breakfast, and I still manage to have treats. Furthermore it's a lot easier to eat less calories than to burn off the required amount for a deficit through exercise.

We're all different and the 2000 calorie recommended daily amount doesn't take into account our differences such as height, build, activity level etc. My maintenance calories will probably be around 1600 calories and I'm short and athletic. Who are we to dictate what another woman's maintenance is (or what you think it should be) if they feel good, are healthy and aren't experiencing ill effects.

I understand that calorie counting can lead to obsessiveness etc. but a lot of people, including me, find it useful to see what they're eating and control their portions.

Being served smaller portions than men is a common bugbear on MN, but I don't get it because women need fewer calories than men.

For me personally 1200 is enough (I'm 5ft and 8st 5lb BMI approx 21). But if I was 5'8 it would be a very different story. I think calorie intake recommendations are daft for that reason alone.

We should be encouraging more exercise rather than increasingly small amount of food to ‘fuel’ a sedentary lifestyle

I believe there’s evidence suggesting that diet is more important than exercise, but of course, when everything’s in balance, moderation is key.

I like food and drink so cycle a lot. (I also like cycling). If I'm not doing exercise (usually about 100km a week) I have to cut down my intake significantly. I don't feel calorie deprived and ill then though as I'm still taking in the calories I need I just need less.
It's mainly when you are losing weight you feel rubbish.
Agree not being obese is an issue for men and women. I prefer slim men.
I've never counted calories but do easily put on weight if I don't keep an eye on my weight. I've never got in to the comfort eating thing. It's more the alcohol on an evening I need to watch.

Not many? I went out with a bloke with a hairy back for a while, I don't mind body hair on a man, assuming I like the man, obviously!

And I've seen men "tease" each other far more for the body / looks that women teasing TBH.

Anyway that's only anecdotal :) and it's not a race to the bottom. Anyone who thinks the pressure is anything like the same is not correct though.

Plus I mean I look around my office and I don't think that lots of the men are feelign huge pressure to look good :D

Men do this as well. It now doesn't just affect women. Men are also under huge pressure to have a good body, no hair or look a certain way.
How many women tease about a man having a hairy back etc.

To be fair, we pretty much all over consume in the west, especially taking into account our sedentary lifestyles. I think we have lost sight of portion control - my grandparents portions were teeny compared to modern day portion sizes. Women eating moderately and staying a healthy weight is actually a good thing that will greatly benefit their long term health. Fat is a feminist issue in that it is really, really bad for you and if you love women you wouldn't wish obesity related heath outcomes on them for the sake of a larger piece of pie.

All that considered, women who are living in tiny amounts of calories 800-1200 a day, are not healthy. This should not be considered normal

I’m a size 16 only because I have periods of living on 800 cals a day. It’s a scientific approach that has been shown to reverse diabetes. I eat whole, largely unprocessed foods and am never hungry.

But sure. Let’s all scoff 2000 per day for the hell of it.

I think this is an area where women could do with a little less pressure, and men a little more.

Not to mention that for a proportion of those dieters it will likely predispose them to gain weight long term. So they can waste more time in the satisfying pursuit of weight loss.

While I’m currently rather spherical due to an advanced state of pregnancy, in my yoof I was fit as a flea. I was tiny (I’m short) but I wasn’t thin. I’m just a small build and I was very strong for my size. BMI never below 23 even though I was a tiny size eight. Always had a sight tummy, always had thighs of steel

Disordered eating is extremely prevalent- I see the current clean eating thing as part of it as well if I’m honest. No food is ‘clean’ or ‘dirty’ and a lot of the current food culture lends itself to weight loss via restriction of entire food groups. Now of course if you genuinely have an allergy or an intolerance that’s one thing, but otherwise cutting whole groups out of your diet is rarely positive.

It’s restriction to keep women in line (and I suppose men too, if it’s crossing over) - worry about eating this, or that, or your weight, or your clothes no don’t look up and see the gross inequality in society!

Calorie counting definitely led me down a route of disorded eating to an extremely low bmi. I never went to my gp at my lowest weight but when I sought help with completing my recovery at a bmi of 17 I was told I was probably fine. That was a few years ago and I'm still underweight. I have long term vitamin and mineral deficiencies etc.

I know this isn't a path everyone will take but given that restrictive eating disorders affect women far far more than men, I think its fair to suggest the culture of calorie counting does have negative affects for mostly women.

Look at all the World Strongest Men/Women. You will notice not one of them is lean. None.

That used to be the case, but not any more.
Plenty of them are lean, the Polish guy Mariusz was maybe the first one.
But it's true that to build muscle you need a calorie surplus, and to lose fat you need a calorie deficit, and you can't do both at once.

It’s also I think down to this thing that women should not take up space.

They should not take up space at work - I’ve been called aggressive for taking a stance that a Male co worker would have been told was proactive. When I pointed this out I got embarrassed shuffling in return. My role at work is to be efficient. I am efficient and I’m a good people manager. I am NEVER aggressive. I am never rude, abusive etc. But I will stand my corner and I will have my direct reports backs and I will not be ridden roughshod over. I am endlessly calm, I’ve never even raised my voice at work and I’ve defused and dealt with very stressful situations. Those attributes are seen as aggressive in a woman. Women must be subservient at work. We must not occupy space

It’s the same with the body. Look at the bloody fuss over the Wonder Woman movie. People criticising her thighs ffs. It’s like it’s a revolutionary act to be strong rather than take up no space

The ideal of being waffer thin and quiet and passive is all about denying women a presence. A space. A physical space or a space in the heirarchy. If you can sell them a shirload of crap as well all the better.

My conversation is about whether women are given unsustainable weight goals in order to keep them placid and distracted. Surely if you’re living with less than needed calories, brain power and energy is affected

I'd say it's more about demanding that women be small and weak so that men can be comparatively big and strong, and who cares how much damage it does to the women? It's feeding a male power fantasy. That's why female actors have to be so tiny, to make the male actors look big in comparison.

In my experience, strong women generally weigh a lot more than men of the same height. Reason being that women have to carry extra bodyfat because of the way our bodies work. If a man and a woman of the same height and basic build are training towards the same goal (a certain bench press, for example) you should expect the woman to weigh more.

If you are trying to stay small you will not be able to achieve your body's maximum strength. Look at all the World Strongest Men/Women. You will notice not one of them is lean. None. If you want to be as strong as possible you need fat to fuel it too.

I'm not even sure how they came up with the idea that women should weigh less than men in general, or that (in the BMI) women should weigh the same as a man of the same height. What was that based on?

Fat acceptance bloggers? Wow, never heard of those, you learn something new.
I do follow some health food bloggers on instagram, they're a mix of female and male. They can be a bit obsessive about eating clean, whole food, but I think it's a decent balance.
The men are usually pretty ripped, and the women well toned, but nothing too extreme.
They're definitely focussed more on health, but with some focus on looks.

Definitely - rejecting the ‘must eat clean and take up no space’ doctrine doesn’t mean going to the other extreme.

It means a focus on health. On good food, in general moderation, without guilt at the odd bit of cake because your lifestyle is healthy enough to absorb that. Neither extreme is good.

The fat acceptance bloggers have a point in that ones worth is not linked to ones size. And the abuse directed at larger people is awful. That message is positive. What’s not positive is to promote obesity, and there is a difference between promoting it and stopping people being abused for it.

I keep erasing and re-typing this because I am having trouble expressing what I am trying to say, but here goes. Unpopular opinion alert (potentially): Some moderation of calories is necessary in an environment full of cheap, tasty, calorically-dense food.

I want to be very clear that I know women are held to beauty standards which are actively harmful to them. Yes, men face pressure too, but while they are pressured to be athletic, women are pressured to be as thin as possible (while still having a large butt and breasts, natch). It is unhealthy and unfair. And it does indeed cause women to starve themselves in the pursuit of that ideal.

That all being said, I spent a lot of time in my younger years following the popular fat acceptance bloggers, and I have noticed that there is an all-or-nothing mindset with regards to calorie counting (or even just the idea that one should monitor ones intake) which is common within the movement. I believe it is a reaction to the tremendously unrealistic and harmful dieting advice out there, but it is unrealistic and harmful in its own way.

Keeping an eye on your food will not transform you into a joyless husk consumed by anxiety and self-hatred. Losing weight can be as simple as eating 100 fewer calories per day than you normally would; that's what, 2 oreo cookies? You don't have to choke down 7 spinach leaves for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. You don't have to swear off any of the foods that make life worth living.

I don't want to go into it too much (this is long enough), but I have seen various family members going through health issues not because they are lazy, slovenly, gluttonous fatties, but because they live normal lives in an environment with lots of great food. Despite the fact that a couple of them are fairly active, their weight is still making life more difficult than it needs to be. My aunt, especially, refuses to consider dieting because she just knows that it's a one-way ticket to an eating disorder, but for the others it's more that they are convinced that 1) cutting calories is, by definition, torture, and 2) it is impossible to lose weight unless you are significantly depriving yourself. Maybe if your goal is Kate Moss, yeah, but if you're just looking to make flying in coach a little more comfortable then that is a goal within reach for the vast majority of people.

Fat is definitely a feminist issue, but I wish we didn't have to throw the baby (of health-consciousness, I guess) out with the bathwater (... of unhealthy beauty ideals and practices). Being aware of what you eat isn't the same as being ruled by it.

Apologies for the ramble.

I'm 5'4, female and work in an office. I really don't need 2000 cals per day.

Horses for courses.

This is the same for men a healthy male bmi is difficult to achieve, most athletes are considered overweight going off bmi yet a healthy calorie amount for a man would leave a moderately active man seriously lacking. There is some very poor advice out there for both men and women.

I actually think this crap will start to get pushed at men as well, once the female market is saturated.

Start to?
Take a look at a muscle or fitness forum or magazines sometime.
I lurk on a muscle/fitness forum which is mostly men obsessing over six packs, biceps and body fat %.