Transgender contributors - is a third space enough for you.

'Women are nothing special' says the delightful daimbars

YY Prachett

that a male who has never previously committed a sexual or violent crime is still a vastly greater risk to women than other women

This though, we know convictions for rape and sexual assault are ridiculously low, so you could (and would) have a situation where men who have actually committed multiple sexual offenses against women are shoved in with women.

Kind of similar to how the current 'rigorous' risk assessment appears to allow people who are actually currently in prison for sexual offenses against women to be in with women.

But, its just women right. Who gives a fuck? Is basically what TRAs (and much of society) say

Individual loos would help a lot, not only transgender people but also GNC people who suffer regular challenges and children at risk of GID. And Dads with their dds and disabled people and people who are very shy around all people and women who are menstruating and dealing with leakage and pregnant women with children who have no way of lifting them to the bloomin basins to wash their hands and all the women crossing their legs because the male architect didn't design enough loos into the building because he didn't care because there's always space in the men's. And men who are at risk from other men.

I agree with you wholeheartedly on this Sarah, and will be right there with you when the campaign comes out!

Sadly I think fewer women will be there with us than would have been before the trans debate took off. Sadly I do suspect (not talking about anyone here btw) that some people will see it as a big change that only benefits transpeople, and so will sit on their hands. But this has been a feminist issue for a long time! Line inequality of toilets (i.e. there are always being a queue for the ladies and none for the men) is a feminist issue. And all the other things you've mentioned in your post!

If money were to be expended to upgrade facilities I think this would be a far more comprehensive solution than the creation of any (divisive, IMO) "third space".

Ireland has a rule whereby prisoners are housed in the estate of their birth sex. I think that’s the way to go tbh.

All inmates should be safe in prison - a single male inmate in a female prison is a danger to safety, dignity and privacy of female inmates. They simply should not be there. There may need to be units within Male prisons to cope, but simply housing men in women’s prisons is not the answer

This ignores:
1 that a male who has never previously committed a sexual or violent crime is still a vastly greater risk to women than other women
2 that women inmates are more likely to have suffered chronic violence, trauma and abuse and should never be forced to share a cell or a shower with males
3 the enormous cost of such assessments is simply unaffordable given the straightened circumstances of the prison service
4 it subjects the entire prison service to the whim of transgender males despite the massive problems it currently suffers from which affect so many more people

The TRA narrative, currently being parroted by the government and well-placed TRA in the prison and probation services, is that ALL inmates would undergo rigorous safety assessment so that self ID will have no impact.

You keep high risk people individually separate as they do now.

I don't think that would work. Even guys who aren't deemed 'high risk' will rape women in prison. Even without the risk of rape, consensual relationships will mean that women get pregnant in prison.

Along with women (and some of the men) being uncomfortable sharing communal showering space, for example. I would be uncomfortable in ANY communal showering but I would be near distraught with bloody men there too!

There are a few reasons to be against mixed sex prisons. Hence having single sex prisons (until recently) in the first place.

Prisons is one of the main areas I do not think has an actual solution besides..keep single sex and maybe have a wing for people who feel they are neither sex/are trans.

What Cordelia said, I mean

TRA say they need access to women's spaces for safety, ignoring the obvious argument - well any bloke will have access so it doesn't make you any more safe. They ignore it because they know they weren't unsafe in the first place. They don't care if they have to share a space with men. The important thing is that women don't get their own space. In other words what bowl just said.

But why is access to a mixed space on a special day better than access to a mixed space everyday? Surely a mixed space for everyone validates no-one.

Or is it the fact that they don't want women to have anything for themselves? A third space is ok so long as the women's only space is taken away from women. The benefit of the special everyone mixed day is that the perceived advantage that women have is taken away.

They don’t want third spaces - they want access to women’s spaces for validation

Prisons You keep high risk people individually separate as they do now.

1. There isn’t enough space or facility capacity in the female estate to house even a proportion of TIM prisoners in it
2. Self ID will remove any case by case treatment and require TIMs to be in with the general population.

And before we get a ‘that never happens/won’t happen/they’re all monitored and safe’ Paris green was able to have sex with female prisoners in their cell. It does happen, it has happened and it will happen.

How do you have a private individual unisex rugby match?

EA says you can exclude from sports if there is a risk to health/ safety.

In most cases it's just a risk to fair play.

For many fair play means not excluding people.

I'd love an answer to this. I think including trans women at club level would probably have to involve changes like uncontested scrums for safety reasons. This would be a significant disadvantage to women who also play at higher levels, up to international. It would make the women's game less competitive and less appealing. There would be similar problems in other contact sports. I'm not sure that being inclusive is generally a priority in sport, being competitive is usually the ultimate aim.

I read the thread yesterday about the open air baths in Malmo and there was an aspect of it that made no sense to me. There is normally a women's area, a men's area and a mixed area. Then for one day a month it is all mixed so it can be used by the queer, non-binary, trans etc. community. But why is that any different from the mixed area that is available all the time. Having a third species not seem to be enough but I don't understand why.

your recommendation is an area where men can stand naked while male and female children have to walk through them to reach a cubicle.

Yeah. I've met men. Some of them are getting changed. At least two are admiring their own cocks and one of them is doing it with his hand...

The BBC have created 3rd spaces - gender neutral toilets apparently in addition to sex segregated spaces:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/bbc-creates-unisex-toilets-for-hundreds-of-transgender-staff-0g6mgtrfk?shareToken=376b61cac2e938270cc94d632d6f2261

The system we have works fine. If u r desperate for a wee and giving out that the toilet door has the wrong sign then just wait another half an hour.

Gibberty wrote this:

A few places have a mix of cubicles around a communal area where people can also change. Those who want to use a cubicle can. Personally I find them claustrophobic. I am perfectly happy to go topless on the beech so I am totally relaxed - bottoms are a work of moments. I understand others aren't comfortable and I do think a good supply of private cubicles is important, some family size.

So your recommendation is an area where men can stand naked while male and female children have to walk through them to reach a cubicle. Really? I need to walk past men changing into a cubicle?

The new pools here have changing villages which are fine. I don't care about the mixed showers. Everyone stays clothed. They have to put something in place so that cameras can't be put under/ over cubicle walls

"I think a room for men and a room for women each with cubicles ringing a communal area would be ideal."

A few places have a mix of cubicles around a communal area where people can also change. Those who want to use a cubicle can. Personally I find them claustrophobic. I am perfectly happy to go topless on the beech so I am totally relaxed - bottoms are a work of moments. I understand others aren't comfortable and I do think a good supply of private cubicles is important, some family size.

"Or we could deem all those changes an expensive waste of time. She could always buy testosterone off the internet and then she'd pass as a man and be another invisible ftm who is no bother to anyone"

I wouldn't recommend self-medication.

Love your advice: my solution also.

I'm a big fan of changing all men's loos into unisex and keeping women's for women.... solves those queuing problems in one fell swoop!

I think a room for men and a room for women each with cubicles ringing a communal area would be ideal.

Rinsing off the chlorinated water is great, but you could do that poolside like most outdoor pools do. Surely the whole point of having showers is so that people who want to actually shower properly before changing back into clothes can do so (using soap and not skipping their entire torso).

Agree re showers although most just want to get the chlorinated water out quickly. I like the single cubicles though, communal changing sucks even with other women. Maybe we should put heads together to plan the ideal changing setup.