Friend has very conflicting views about women, politics etc

But ok, keep your blinkers on and your head in the sand. I'm sure hiding from your opponents arguments will be beneficial for you in the long run! Goddess Speed to you Sister!

Seriously, why so combative and personal? That's the problem with the debate and the CN/JP youtube comments: the anti-feminists are so desperately gleeful to see a feminist get her comeuppance, it's all so "GOTCHA!"

You don't know me well enough to assume I've kept my blinkers on. The truth is I've spent all my life having these arguments and engaging with, being friends with anti-feminists. But I'm getting old and I don't have the energy for it anymore.

Anyway, I've watched the interview now and I agreed with him on trans issue but not on the lobster theory.. that was rather strange.

There was another video where he discussed with two women about feminism and he seemed fairly respectful.

To be honest, it's not so much him or his views, but the comments that come underneath it, the delight at feminists getting thrashed! The willingness to dismiss women and label them as hypocrites in their fight for equality, the desire to bash them rather than consider their claims. It feels like thinly-veiled misogyny to me.

Now, if you're going to respond to me fmsfms respond to me like a human being, who has a personal stake in all this, rather than a bra-burning man-hating caricature of a feminist, with all that nasty "goddess sister" piss-taking.

Newman took entirely the wrong approach to the discussion. She was clearly let down (either by herself or by researchers) in her knowledge of what his arguments are, took an adversarial approach and couldn't respond to the way in which he was responding. So clearly, doing a lot more research and preparation would have made for a better discussion, along with trying a different style rather than being very adversarial. And yes, having more facts to hand and being able to defend their sources. All of that would have helped.

If we are to defend feminism, then we need to deal I facts. Feelings, experiences and anecdotes are not enough.

Anyhow - here is a link to the Peterson/Newman debate for anyone that missed it.

10.2 million views so far.
m.youtube.com/watch?v=aMcjxSThD54

The discussion wasn't about "feminism", feminism related subjects such as the "pay gap" but they are not exclusive to feminism.

Why do you think he was "better at arguing"? What do you need to be a good debater? Facts would be helpful.

But ok, keep your blinkers on and your head in the sand. I'm sure hiding from your opponents arguments will be beneficial for you in the long run! Goddess Speed to you Sister!

Why don't you watch it, it went viral for a reason.

yeah, because JP is good at arguing and CN wasn’t up to his debating skills.

The truth is it’s hard to present feminism to anti-feminist people. It’s so personal for us because sexism has affected us.

Being better at arguing at a subject that doesn’t affect you as much doesn’t mean you’re right.

And yet you're here to give the "alternative" position, which makes the idea of an echo chamber less convincing. And this response to women you describe happens on most threads? Enough to chase away everyone with a different opinion? And of course, MN feminist chat is the only place that people here ever look at and post on, no doubt.

"Echo chamber" seems to be the new insult to immediately dismiss someone else's point of view. It's quite dull.

It can at times be a quite apt description of the MN feminist boards to be honest. I have lost count of the times a women who identifies herself as feminist has entered a discussion on here only to be patronisingly told to 'go and educate yourself' or just be torn to shreds because she does not slavishly follow the accepted feminist orthodoxy of the more established members here. It's no surprise that many folk find it a bit intimidating to come on here.

Also it's not true that no women are paid less than men for the same or comparable work; just because it's illegal doesn't mean it doesn't happen. In many (most) cases it's hard to know or show though.

I couldn't be friends with someone who enjoyed playing goad the feminist whenever we met. I know people like that it's no fun at all.

"Echo chamber" seems to be the new insult to immediately dismiss someone else's point of view. It's quite dull.

Not wanting to spend time with someone who thinks you're a lesser being is completely acceptable if it is continually unpleasant.

@IfyouseeRitaMoreno "Can someone summarise the Jordan Peterson Cathy Newman interview. I don’t think I can stand to watch or read the comments. Was it a gift to the MRAs?"

Why don't you watch it, it went viral for a reason.

There is nothing wrong with watching people who can recite backwards all the opposing evidence against your world view.

Being able to "iron man" their arguments in response, as opposed to the aforementioned "straw men" that Newman attempted, can only improve/solidify your own position

It would seem in mumsnet land quite a few people prefer living in an echo chamber.

I am well known as being happy to have a barney with friends and there be no hurt feelings - but why choose to spend time with people who quite literally sexist pricks? Life is too short.

@dragontwo "I felt many of his views were quite misogynist"

Misogynist is overused to the point where it's now fairly meaningless and trival - just like "nazi" "fascist" "transphobic" etc

" the gender pay gap doesn't exist, women just choose to do lower paid jobs (the jordan peterson / cathy newman interview "proved" this). "

If he believes the gender pay gap doesn't exist then he's wrong.

If he believes the gender pay gap exists but is caused by reasons other than "sexism" or "patriarchy" then that's a perfectly valid opinion.

You seem to disagree with eachother over concepts that are not exactly tangible/definitive.

You should have a little more understanding. There's a virtually identical thread elsewhere on the front page - if you immerse yourself or study a subject, in this case feminism, you can't expect laypeople to share the same opinions or be familiar with the core arguments.

Moaning that they don't agree with you and getting depressed just makes you sound intolerant

Can someone summarise the Jordan Peterson Cathy Newman interview. I don’t think I can stand to watch or read the comments. Was it a gift to the MRAs?

The MRA's certainly hitched their wagon to it and Newman unsurprisingly received the usual vile online abuse, something Peterson has repeatedly condemned.

That however cannot distract from the fact that it was a car crash interview by Newman who perfectly demonstrated the straw man fallacy by repeated use of the phrase “so what you’re saying is..” when he was "saying" nothing of the sort. She was poorly briefed on her subject and went for the jugular and failed miserably. Newman was probably let down by one of her researchers as her interview notes seemed to contain the views of Peterson’s most rabid critics, rather than those of the man himself which led to him rather easily batting her questions away in a calm manner.

I quite like Newman as a news anchor but that interview did her no favours at all.

Your OP exactly describes my brother. I try to ignore him but every now and again I bite and lose my cool.

🙄

It baffles me that you cannot maintain a friendship with someone with different views.

It would seem in mumsnet land quite a few people prefer living in an echo chamber.

"I just found out that my DH voted Conservative in the recent local elections, AIBU to consider ending the relationship?"

"Ugh, ditch him, the Tories are evil"

etc etc

If you can have fun with him (not all topics of conversation will be affected by this surely?)

Case in point. Some people would not consider this type of relationship a friendship. Those people would say that someone you had superficial fun with was not a friend but an acquaintance.

I don’t think there is a right way or a wrong way BTW. Just people are different and the insults are uncalled for.

No comments on the actual views, but they are very different from mine.

Which means, I wouldn't enter a relationship with him.
I wouldn't put him aside unless he started being aggressive or defending rape, for example.
I would keep talking, but I'd ask him questions to challenge his beliefs rather than try to indoctrinate him.
For example, what is the evidence for women being biologically attracted to housework?

I think those posters who say that they couldn't be friends with someone with a different point of view are just retreating into an echo chamber and then seem shocked when something like Brexit or Trump comes about!

If you can have fun with him (not all topics of conversation will be affected by this surely?), then I'd say keep being friends and have some good discussions with him from time to time! You'll never be able to articulate your own views properly if you haven't had to defend them against someone who disagrees anyway.

That’s not what I’m saying Maisy. I’m saying people interpret the word friend differently. For some it means ‘only those closest to me out of all my acquaintances’ and for some it means ‘everyone I know’.

It’s rarely anything to do with ‘being right’ but about what ‘being a friend’ means to you.

People might be able to create an echo chamber online but it’s pretty difficult to do that IRL.

If friend means only the closest relationships that says nothing about your ability to tolerate disagreement or whether you are exposed to different views. It’s entirely possible to be a person who values disagreement and only considers people to be friends if they share values or a person who cannot cope with disagreement and has a large number of people they consider friends who have very different values and views.

I wouldn't try to 'educate' a friend. I would stop talking in generalities and talk about your lives. Plenty of men have a horrible time due to patriarchy and the demands of toxic masculinity. Just be his friend, enjoy his company - nothing is more radical than genuine male/female friendship. If he starts banging on about the pay gap, ask him about how he made choices in his own career. If you start dreading seeing him, tell him so (gently).

Assassinated beauty. Not sure what you mean by that?