Women policing women

I wonder why 3 posters have appeared in quick succession making personal comments about the op.

This thread is going weird.

What about free association?

I'm amazed because your best friend VA did this to a woman

Hang on a minute - is posie supposed to disassociate from anyone guilty of the things she disagrees with?

It is possible to disagree with someone in one area and agree with them elsewhere.

Actually Taco, I am also divorced from the wholesale male privilege. Not denying that there are more men at the top of the privilege pile, but again I could come up with countless examples where that just is wildly inadequate to be anything other than bullshit.
So you just... don't believe in privilege? I apologise if I'm being thick here.

It seems she agrees with me about little girls too, perhaps you'll allow her the opinions that you were gleeful in accusing me of being Islamophobic? If that's the case you're possibly a terrible advocate of identity politics and need to have a sharp word with yourself.

I'm confused as to what you're trying to say here; I definitely disagree with the article that you have posted, for reasons that I already explained in the other thread.

perhaps you'll allow her the opinions that you were gleeful in accusing me of being Islamophobic?

There is an implication that you think I don't allow you opinions. I certainly do. I respond to your opinions, I never tried to take away free speech. But I disagree with the writer of the article as much as you, definitely. And I was never gleeful about anything. There is a lot of projection going on here. It seems to me that you are still trying to have a debate with me about the hijab or make me angry by suggesting that I am a terrible advocate of identity politics and that I need to have a sharp word with myself. That is not the point of this thread. If you want to debate with me further about Islam oppressing women you are free to DM me.

I agree Offred, but women cannot be expected to constantly apologise for that,. I do get rather bored of privilege measuring. Is a white working class child more or less privileged than a black middle class child? When do we get to climb out of a class?

Personally I disagree with this. You wouldn't have a problem with people pointing out male privilege, so why is it different when it comes to race? I hate it when people say something stupid and counterproductive like 'check your privilege' and I would never expect anyone to feel 'guilty' about it either. What really annoys me is when people imply that it isn't there or even outright deny it because "oh don't you dare suggests that I'm privileged! How can I be? I'm a woman!" Thats where it becomes an issue for me. Btw I'm not suggesting for a second that you did this but I have seen it a lot on this forum.

Some young Muslim women argue that veils liberate them from a modern culture that objectifies and sexualises females. That argument is appealing; but if credible, why would so many hijabis dress in tight jeans and clinging tops, and why would so many Muslim women flock to have liposuction or breast enhancements?

Well your post answers your question surely. some young Muslim women argue this. There is nothing to suggest that these same women are the ones wearing tight jeans or breast enhancements(this in my opinion at least is ridiculous anyway as it defeats the point of covering yourself). These young women are not speaking for every woman; there are hardly any hijabis that wear lots of tight-fitting clothing anyway(this is purely anecdotal but i know many Muslims being one myself).

this is called disagreement. You won't die.

That would make a good T shirt slogan.

Completely agree woman.

I find it hard to comment specifically without some examples. For example, I have criticised GG about some of her recent comments at Hay re rape - which I think are grossly misinformed and do many survivors much harm. I don't see what's wrong with that - I'm not critiquing her life's work. She also can take it. I am not a fan of "don't criticise GG cos we owe her" - just because she's an academic doesn't mean her opinions are automatically to be followed.

I really think the wider dynamics of the patriarchy have a much bigger impact on women's behaviour than is generally understood. A lot of the control and policing is unconscious I think, and a lot of it is about power. We all need to have some sense of power and control in our lives - try being at the mercy of others and welfare and see how that works for you.

In general, women have so little power in the patriarchy that they sometimes can only gain a sense of power by policing other women and kids. Women being overly controlling can also be as a result of male violence - it's impossible to take your anger to a man/men where they don't own the impact of their behaviour, so women control other women and kids and unconsciously take that displaced anger to them. Also women get rewarded by men in many cultures for policing other women, so they just automatically do that not realising what they do is actually to get male approval. Because to support "errant, individual and opinionated females" often brings sanctions of exclusion, not approval.

Also, women aren't generally taught now to assert themselves, rebut comments so they don't take them personally and so on. Emotional intelligence is learned through experiencing it, normally as a child. So if your culture/family etc isn't known/doesn't know how to be assertive, then it takes a very long time (generations) for girls/ women to have the opportunity to learn other ways. Girls, like boys, mirror what their parents did mostly, despite what their parents say.

flash do you care to share your entire social media back history so we can trawl through it and publicly condemn every incident we find of your hypocrisy and wrong think please (you are human therefore we will find it)? Its only fair.

Ha!
The irony of this when the poster has policed other women's clothing choices. How funny...

Keen-Mental is hilarious!

Princess, sorry, walking to school!

I find the idea that you don’t know that pretty shocking.

Who are you reponding too?

I suppose that there is a difference between 'class' solidarity and individual heroics when it comes to feminism.

Some believe that you must toe the line, look to the consensus before acting, in order to not screw it up for everyone.

Others think "stuff it, I am going to act according to my own conscience, even if it sometimes causes friction".

It becomes problematic when the consensus crew go unheard because their voices are so watered down, samey and lacking in character that no one can be bothered listening so they hang on the coat tails of the breakout crew for a bit of publicity, then get pissed off the shero doesn't toe the line of the consensus. (While the now pariah shero gets pissed of that the consensus crew doesn't support them even though they themselves rejected their prescriptive cues).

You can actually have whatever name you wish to and you can also have the title ‘Ms’ in the UK...

What you cannot do, as with all women, is make choices that defy patriarchal expectations without suffering consequences.

For many women the consequences go far beyond not being able to pay in cheques, getting Christmas cards in the wrong name etc etc. Some women risk destitution or violence re name stuff.

I find the idea that you don’t know that pretty shocking.

Perhaps there was vanishingly little analysis of women who choose to take a husband’s name being oppressive to women who want to keep a birth name because that’s actually a deeply dubious POV for someone on this board.

Even if all women were able to make free name choices without consequence and all women decided to keep particular names then patriarchy would simply draw new battle lines or abandon names as a battle ground having decided it wasn’t important IMO.

That’s what has traditionally happened re advancement of women’s rights in history and it has happened that way because it is patriarchy that is oppressive not women.

Mmmm.... I think it is about picking your battles. I know I personally wouldn't choose to be Mrs Husband'sName and I don't think it is helpful when women choose it, but I don't think a woman is being antifeminist when she does - she is being Patriarchy-appeasing.

However, if a woman chooses to be Mrs Husband'sName and then shouts from the rooftops that this is a feminist act and that in order to be actualised as a woman or feminist you must join her and do the same, then she is being antifeminist because she is breaking the work of feminism, upholding patriarchy and oppressing other women as an expression of 'personal choice'.

There's a difference between being 'unfeminist' and 'antifeminist'.

It is pretty much impossible to live without doing some unfeminist things. Doesn't necessarily mean you are actively undoing the work of feminism - you just aren't helping either.

And that is the crux of it.

'Not helping' does not mean 'actively undermining'.

Yes, I’m particularly aware of that point re agency and harm to other women.

It is in fact the point I am making and the subject of the thread re policing.