Women defining themselves as wife and mother.

I just get quite frustrated with the view that women who are spending time being SAHM are not feminist or “contributing to a patriarchal society” etc etc

Why is it so wrong for a woman to want to stay at home and raise her children?

I’ve had 3 children and each time I cannot imagine anything worse than having to return to work in the first year of their lives. I just want to be with them - nursing them, raising them. That’s me.

I’ve finished three different undergraduate degrees and a masters degree and I’m also highly ambitious. I’m lucky enough to have had the choice to stay at home and be with the kids as my DH earnings have been adequate to support our family during this time. He is an incredibly hands on dad, but even if he’d wanted to be a stay at home father I wouldn’t have wanted to work in that time. That’s me.

But for others it’s different. Some women can’t wait to return to work after having children. I understand and support that too.

How is feminism not about choice? It’s sad to see so much criticism of women’s choices - coming from other women. This is where I think our greatest downfall is - in not supporting each other despite differing lifestyles and decisions.

If everything else was solved (big IF), yes I think that would be true.
But we might be happy with that.

In that you are putting the onus on the women for the fact that the gap would still exist...

This is what I wholeheartedly don’t agree with.

In what way?
If all other inequalities are solved, and women and men can split childcare and take that hit to their careers and earnings, if there are still some women who aren't doing this, there will still be a small gap.
It may be a gap we are happy to live with though.

I just don't see how the gender pay gap will ever be closed when some women are defining the purpose of their existence as bringing up children.

This is what I wholeheartedly don’t agree with.

Yes but highlighting the problem is different to blaming SAHM for the problem.

@fivelittleduckies: Wrong. Read my other posts. I said all the other things which stop women earning as much as men need addressing.
I am not saying the gap exists because of SAHMs, but a small percentage of it does.

Obviously it's just my take on it, and evidently many people disagree with me, but seeing your friends lose what I consider to be massive parts of their person is a shame.

They havent lost a massive part of their person.** Maybe motherhood is just atm more interesting than reading a book or going for a walk so thats why they decide to post about that on social media (than their usual pics of oh heres me going for a walk that ive done a billion times before🙄)

I'm not blaming them for that, I'm just wondering how the gap can ever be closed when this is the case.

That’s just it though you are. Instead of looking at the bigger picture and saying - what needs to be done differently so that there is a space for women who have taken time off to raise kids to re enter the workforce without being financially disadvantaged ?

You are saying it’s because of SAHM that this pay gap persists.

May I ask - who do you expect to raise our children? If it is childcare facilities then I understand why you are approaching this issue from your angle. But if you think parenting is a shared responsibility of both parents then your focus should be on addressing equality and balance right there - with better parental leave and more working flexibility for both parents.

Hope I make sense..?

It is a choice, but it's one made as a result of insidious patriarchal conditioning, even if it feels free.

I disagree. There is nothing in my life that has felt more innate than mothering my children.

OP I agree, and I understand you aren't denigrating their individual happiness, but rather lamenting the fact that it's so ingrained in women to pursue shedding their individuality to come second to a man and kids. And it's not a conscious choice, I'm sure nobody sits and thinks, hey, I can't be me anymore - it's just so innate that it's "what you do" and instead of inspiring to be the best YOU want to be for yourself in tandem with having a family, you let you as a person take a back seat. It is a choice, but it's one made as a result of insidious patriarchal conditioning, even if it feels free.

There's much confusion between 'defining oneself' and 'describing oneself'.

There are a million attributes that contribute to ones description of one's self. Their relative importance changes over time.

The women referred to in the OP aren't defining themselves
The OP is defining them, and in a limited and judgemental way too.

The women are sharing one aspect of their lives publicly. It is for them to decide their own priorities, not for observers to declare they have the full measure of those women based upon their limited window of observation.

True, bumpity.
BTW, I am not blaming SAHMs for the gender pay gap.
It just seems that if all the many other causes of gender pay gap are solved - women paid less for the same role, discrimination blocking women from promotions, from working in more lucrative industries, etc., there will still be this issue which prevents it ever being 50:50.

@deydododatdodontdeydo
Yes, you're right about the loss of earnings being split between the sexes, but there's a more general notion that anything that is traditionally female dominated tends to be undervalued. Obvious examples being teachers, carers etc but also examples where industries tend to see increases in pay when men takeover (computer programming) and vice versa. I think there is still a perception in society that anything a man does is intrinsically more valuable than the same work/role done by a woman.

Interesting that you feel they shouldnt be referring to themselves as Mrs and yet your username is Miss. Do you feel that you're somehow better feminist if you are not married?

I’ve found that the way my friends portray themselves on social media and blogs can really put me off them so I’ve stopped using it. I find it far better to judge someone by my interactions with them in person than by my interactions with them on the internet

Bumpity, I don't think it's to assign them value is it? It's to split the deficit you get from time out of the workplace between both parents.
I don't foresee that if more men become SAHDs, employers will suddenly start saying, "well you were earning £25k when you took a break, it's now 10 years later so we'll pay you £35k to make up for it".
At least if more dads SAH then that £10k (hypothetical numbers plucked from nowhere) hit might be split between mum and dad.

@deydododatdodontdeydo
Most of us are going to work for 50 years, a minority of women taking a comparatively few years out to look after our children shouldn't create a massive pay gap that cannot be closed. To me that is completely illogical, although of course I accept that as things stand this is exactly what happens for SAHMs. The penalty for those few years is completely disproportionate.

The answer that most feminists suggest is to get men to take on these roles so that they are assigned some value. The fact that this is seen as the only way to do this is incredibly sad and depressing.

Ok, but even so could you please explain how SAHM are responsible for this gap?

Not responsible, but being a mother, raising kids doesn't bring in a salary. No matter how much we value it.
And it doesn't count for work experience.
When women who have taken a long break because their *core meaning is being a mother" return to the workplace, they won't be at the same level and salary as they would be if they'd worked solid for 10 years.
I'm not blaming them for that, I'm just wondering how the gap can ever be closed when this is the case.

The husbands of these women seem to still keep their hobbies and be multidimensional and the women don’t. Why is that? It is very boring

ffs. Seriously?

In a thread loaded with spite, projection and sneery judgement, this one got under my skin.

I think feminism would achieve far more if we all stopped judging and criticising each other, personally

Quite. The 'feminism' on this thread is too much for me this morning.

@NotAnotherJaffaCake
Being a wife and a mother aren't necessarily supporting roles though are they? I mean a wife can be an equal partner to her husband and a mother can be a/the head of the household, so why do you assume that these roles are inferior and must be therefore supporting a superior, more worthwhile roles?

I think all of the posters who feel sad for women who define themselves predominantly as mothers should question why this would evoke such a reaction. Since becoming a mother I've developed a view that the patriarchy works to undermine and demean the role of mothers (and fathers) so that society views it as inferior and lesser. The vast majority of us would say that our children are our absolute priority and most important people in our lives so when asked to define ourselves is it any wonder that some include "mother" in our definition. Are we meant to pretend that we aren't mothers or changed by motherhood? I think as other PP have suggested, the question would be why fathers don't define themselves similarly.

I think this is why there is such a disdain for SAHMs as underlying the judgement is the belief that you can't be an intelligent/interesting/worthwhile person if you are just being a mother the whole time. A person's value and interest has to be derived from outside the spehere of motherhood as society places so little value on it, probably because it's an area that's obviously dominated by women.

And I know men who put dad and husband too.
Having children/getting married is an achievement....so is having a career, running a extra mile....managing to fix something....keeping sane when having children. Why is it only the parent/partner roll that you all smear at?? That says more about you than them.

I know plenty of males who post photos of themselves, of wife’s and their kids too. How do you not know any.....

Ok, but even so could you please explain how SAHM are responsible for this gap?