Women defining themselves as wife and mother.

Sorry, barring professional type stuff but would be weird to put that on social media.

Lol have you had kids? I have two preschool aged children. I haven't really done anything non mumsy since.

Or maybe that should be - why is it typically viewed as an achievement to be a wife but not a husband ?

Or why do women define them selves as mothers before anything else but men less often define themselves as fathers first ?

men and women have different social norms, and all i'm reading here is the man one is right and the woman one is wrong and I don't really get why.

And to me, without wishing to belittle anyone’s personal choices - that seems like an indicator of inequality.

If society did value being a father as much as being a mother ..or if motherhood and fatherhood were perhaps more equal I’d expect to see a more equal style of posting from both sexes.

Also that being a “wife” seems to still be viewed as an achievement whereas being a husband does not. For it to be equal either both are an ahivement or neither is.

I think that's the point dinosaur. I have loads of male friends who'll share a snap or 2 from a day out and are very hands on dads.
They don't change their bios to say 'James. Hubby to Jane. daddy to Milo & Jessie. Love my wifey and kiddypops to the moon and back'.
They don't do inspriational sharw quotes about how being a dad is the best thing in the whole universe.
They don't follow pages about dads where dads can share images about how hard it is being a dad or why their world is made complete by their wife

They show just normal, slightly boring, sometimes exciting life of a man in his eslry 30s

I see a lot of this. What’s interesting about it, to me is that I’ve never seen these types of changes and posting styles from a man.

On Instagram I post more photos of my dog than anything else ¯\(ツ)/¯

This doesn't reduce me to being a dog owner and nothing else, it's just that she literally follows me everywhere I go. Not even the kids do that these days.

Totally agree with posieparker above. I used to gain great fulfilment from my career, but it simply faded into insignificance after I had DC.

Most jobs come and go and are actually pretty meaningless when you scratch below the surface, yet people have no qualms defining themselves as an "insurance broker", "HR co-ordinatior" or whatever they want to big themselves up as.

I'm not ashamed about describing myself as a mother. It's the most life-defining thing I've ever done. I'm a wife too and this is a huge part of the life I've carved out for myself. I think differently as a wife and mother to the way I did as a single person, of course I do.

Having said this, I'm not on Facebook or Instagram because I can't be bothered with all that. MN is quite enough for me. But I couldn't care less about how other people choose to describe themselves. Life is what you make it and people see things through their own lens. If someone is super proud of being a wife, then so what? It doesn't harm anyone else.

It's not saying people shouldn't mention marriage or kids, more that there's a type who do appear defined by it.

Just thinking from my own friends list:
A - Mum to 3 children, 2 have SEND needs and she's a carer for them. Always wanted to be a wife and mum. Never wanted a career. Came out of work to be a SAHP. Does loads of stuff in the community. Her social media is a mix of family stuff and things she's doing voluntarily around millions of appointments and the school run. Never see her going on about her hubster.

B - Dad. Works full time. Posts are a mix of family things (mainly) and a few hobby posts. Wife is SAHP.

C - Dad. Works full time. Wife works part time. Both post family updates. She tends to do more 'ooh look we're married' but it's sweet and they both seem to have other interests.

D - Mum. Works part time. Seems to think social media is her opportunity to tell the world her baby feeding habits. Lots of inspirational quotes about how awesome it is to breast feed and how her baby is happier and healthier for it. Lots of time with boob monster. It's like she's gone from a functioning human adult to a pair of tits with access to facebook.

E - Mum and Dad. Both post family things and things they've done separately. Maybe a date night check in. Fairly standard.

F - Someone who left school with limited GCSEs. Aim in life was to be a mum. Barely had jobs. Popped out babies to her boyfriend really quickly. Moved in. Lots of using social media as jeremy kyle so Simon is the worst fucking dad on earth on day but then they're loved up and baby is having cuddles with daddy the next. She's threatened to leave him multiple times, but a matter of weeks after that there's another baby announcement. On 4 or 5 kids now. Married to him. Most of her posts are about the kids and how hard it is being a mum whilst also laughing about how much of a tip her house is in and how much she loves/hates DH at any given time

G - functioning woman got married and it was like a personality transplant. Everything is about hubby/hubster/#mrandmrs/#marriedlife lots of photos of tea and how the boy did good etc. Lots of inspiration shared quotes about how your hubby is your rock, you love your famalam

Both men and women I'm friends with mention their DP/DW/DH.
Plenty of women have changed their names.
Men and women share family stuff.

Only women on my newsfeed seem to scrap their own personality and do the 'my life is my man and child' stuff.

I loved my job and I was damned good at it, but it meant absolutely nothing to me once I had kids.

I am a happily married woman and a mother.... both of these tings define who I am as much as being a married man and father defines my husband.

@sleepingdragons - Well said. It's just another example of the insidious attitude that girls are a bit shit and the best way of being a woman is to be more like a man.
I've always reckoned that at work, the sexes really need each other. To put it in crude and completely stereotypical terms, the men need the women so that the whole caboosh doesn't turn into Who can Piss The Highest, and the women need the men so that there's someone in the office that hasn't got Impostor Syndrome.
But in parenting? Here's this amazing thing that women are really good at, the success or failure of which makes more difference to a person's life than just about anything else, and maybe we should learn to value it a bit more.
I can only speak for myself, but I had Proper Jobs for decades and never felt all that good about it. Sure, I'm the prey of evolutionary influences, but I'm not diminished by motherhood. I'm - magnified.

I feel quite muddled about this.

I don't like the 'grow up and marry a prince to look after you and what a good girl you achieved it' attitude but ...

choosing to get married and have children is life defining for both men and women.

and I tend to think that its not really a problem that women are recognising the significance of these events, (particularly being a parent) but the problem is more men aren't. I think married men should change title as well, or no one should. Mx and Mr or Miss, Mr, Mrs and Mrd and I think men should be talking and thinking a lot more about being a father. I think then more women will be able to add some dull hobby to their list of things that define themselves and have more to say about their careers.

@Lottapianos
Oh yes sorry, I should have explained that what she actually said was unacceptable. I was trying to make a point that some commentators seemed to think that the whole reference to motherhood generally was wrong which I don't necessarily agree with.

'Why couldn't Andrea Leadsom say that motherhood had made her a better candidate as it had increased her understanding of not only issues related to children but also those related to mothers? '

She didn't say that though. She suggested that being a mother gave her a much greater stake in the future of the country, compared with poor old Theresa who probably has nieces or nephews or whatever, 'but I have children'. It was cruel, smug, self-satisfied and entirely unnecessary. And as a woman who is not a mother, extremely hurtful. God knows how Theresa May felt being on the receiving end of it.

@JessicaEccles
It's strange that you mention Andrea Leadsom as I was just thinking of her earlier today and the whole motherhood making her a better candidate debacle.

It's been proven time and again that women do the majority of the physical and mental work associated with children, yet if we are to mention it in a corporate or political environment it's seen as unprofessional and a wholly unnecessary. The work is therefore invisible for all intents in purposes in any realm outside of the domestic one. This (an potentially caring for elderly relatives) is the only type of work that is viewed in this way.

Why couldn't Andrea Leadsom say that motherhood had made her a better candidate as it had increased her understanding of not only issues related to children but also those related to mothers? Just in the same way as if she had spent years travelling the world she could argue she had a better understanding of different cultures or had spent years gardening she could say she understood matters related to horticulture. You might say that none of the above have any relation to whether she is the best candidate to be PM but isn't that for the electorate to decide rather than everyone ganging up on someone for daring to suggest motherhood added value to someone that was going to represent a whole bunch of mothers?

I know this was particularly contentious as Theresa May couldn't have children and I understand that this must have seemed quite cruel, but looking at it coldly, surely without the distraction of children Theresa May must have been able to devote all the extra energy and effort into different channels that could have bolstered her candidacy (like most men who aren't usually burdened in the same way by children)? It's hard to articulate without sounding goady but what I'm trying to say is that if we can't even mention that motherhood brings with it valuable experience and learning that could have value outside of the domestic sphere then how will women ever close the gap on men? We have energy diverted from corporate/public life whilst they leap frog us and we can't even mention what we were busy doing. Madness!

I’d rather read posts about someone’s kids than look at photos of their dinner.

'I don't see why it matters to you so much'

That's how a discussion board works! People share opinions. If everyone stuck to only discussing grave issues that affected them personally, MN would be a very quiet place

And none of our 'free choices' are as free as we think they are.

If I go through my instagram, before children it was my interests, hobbies and social life and after children it is mostly defined by me being a mother.

You may find this sad but ultimatley that is 99% of who I am at the minute, they are still small so other than very few social occasions and work they are my life and hobbies as I have little time for anything else!

I don't see why it matters to you so much. I'm married and a mum. I look my husbands name because I wanted to. I changed my name on my social media, and our relationship status says married to each other since the date we got married. I don't see how it matters to anyone.

It always reminds me of right wing female politicians who start every sentence 'As a wife and mother...'. (Thank you Andrea Leadsom, Sara Palin).

Just in case anyone thinks they are a man hating harridan who actually cares about their job...

@sleepingdragons

I totally agree with you.

Sometimes it feels like feminists are talking at cross purposes. Some think that we need to divorce ourselves from motherhood and our children so that we can be more like men and compete more effectively in the corporate world. A lot of these feminists seem to think that if you're not reaching your potential in the world of work then you are doing a disservice to women and the feminist cause.

Then there is a whole other group of women who describe themselves as feminists also, but want motherhood to be acknowledged and given the importance and value it deserves. They want equality in the workplace but not at the expense of having to give up all notions of motherhood being important and special.

Both these groups seem to call themselves "radical feminists"

For me, my lean towards more radical feminism came about because I became a mother. Watching my "value" diminish because I was a mum (and a mum who went back to work full-time very quickly) was a quick lesson in why we need feminism.

I think so much of feminism lets women down badly when it comes to motherhood.

I am very grateful to have been brought up as a feminist, but the feminism I learnt, led me to internalise messages that the roles women have traditionally taken were somehow inferior. That work is more valuable than mothering, that to continue to pursue your career while having small children isn't simply a choice we should be able to make, but the superior choice.

I think this is capitalism creeping into our values. The idea of value through work. Capitalism doesn't value mothering, caring or love.

Capitalism has systematically broken down our communities, to the point that people don't bat an eyelid about communities being broken up, in the name of money (e.g. cuts) these days. It's now working on breaking down the ties in families that we've always taken for granted and this concerns me greatly.

Capitalism works best when we're a nation of individuals, rather than people with strong family and community ties, able to organise in our own interests.

It's arguably an anti-capitalist act to prioritise loving and caring for your family above work! (Although - I do work as I can't afford not to).

When I became a mother, it was all-consuming. Of course it isn't for everyone and that's fine, but I wish our feminism celebrated motherhood more. Women and men are NOT the same when it comes to parenting. biology makes mothers the primary carer in the early days and to ignore that, rather than to celebrate it, is doing us all a disservice IMO.

Motherhood itself is under attack now, from the trans rights movement as they are seeking to get rid of the term mother completely, to be replaced with "parent" and "pregnant person". We urgently need feminism to stand up for mothers.

Sneering about women who are being open about the demands and the all consuming nature of this period in our lives is not feminism at its best IMO - although I must admit, pre-motherhood, I would have been right there with you as I knew no better.

Are there any feminists speaking about this today, does anyone know?

Of all the fucking weird threads, this is def taking the

Should we throw all the children into a state run nursery and send all the women back to the workforce, despite some wishing to stay with their children? Is the ability to have children a curse, a deed to be done to maintain the human species, the reality of which should be forgotten and mangaged over as soon as possible?

Or perhaps, some women might enjoy mothering and, gasp, being domestic. Some might go back to work after their first child but stay home after their second or third. Some might have no choice but to return to work even where they might have wished to stay home and some may be forced to stay home where they wished to return to work. Perhaps they are making the best of it, perhaps they love it. Would it be better if they talked of being so bored that they were cracking open the wine after the school run while the kids crawl in the dog poo?

But no. What we get is snipey judgemental one upwomanship.

"to just tediously posting about their lives as wives and mothers".
If you find their posts so tedious then don't fucking read them.

Much better to mind your own business and stop judging women's actions and feminism.