Can we be honest about the need for affirmation?

Right patent interaction you know how many times people have asked if I'm trans none, I tend to put this down to people having more. Pressing matters when they are in hospital and wanting someone who knows what they are doing looking after them.

I would ask you to at least consider an alternative possibility- that the British generally are a polite and conflict averse nation. That patients are vulnerable in many healthcare situations and do not feel comfortable saying no. This is a theme I’ve seen again and again in the childbirth threads - women feeling uncomfortable but too vulnerable to speak up.

This may not apply to you personally - as you’ve said, the EA was used and you do not do smears. Also I dont think anyone on here has said a blanket no to trans nurses in general. Just as they have no problem with Male nurses in general - they just want a female nurse to do a smear.

I have no issue with a trans nurse in general ward situations just as I have no issue with a male nurse in a general ward situation. None whatsoever. But if I was to have an intimate exam Or needed personal care like a bed bath I would request a female nurse or HCP.

The cancer analogy misses the point. Cancer has nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that someone is trans. The state of ‘being female’ does. While you suffer from dysphoria, the patient has no way of knowing that you do. They have no way of knowing whether the person who is treating them is a transwoman with a GRC and gender dysphoria or an individual with AGP.

Again, absolutely none of this is in any way personal to you, or your own professionalism. But women’s right to have a veto on anyone touching their bodies in an intimate way is so important. Women from various faith groups for example could be deterred from accessing healthcare.

Well if you have nothing constructive to say about what I put then I suppose that's ok then I must have special privileges that other woman don't have as you said.

Didn't say it does not happen poor nursing happens all the time unfortunately and people act in ways that are not appropriate. I can not infulance that I mearly want to give a perspective that is missing. On this thread as no one else appears to be or as worked with a trans nurse I thought you might want to have that point of view in your debate my mistake

No, I can't do that. I risk being banned for reporting something that violates the guidelines but the mods find acceptable because of who said it. You get the special consideration that the women do not.

Bespin
So everything the other MN members said about their experiences as patients are all lies and none of that ever happened because you say so?
Not buying it.

If you do not feel that my. Post is in the spirit of MN then by all means report it to the mods you have that right.

Posts at question our understanding or sexualisation of female genitals are poeple who have no idea of how caring for someone works. We don't know how people with cancer or other conditions feel but we can still care for them and emperthise with them. We are professionals and personal issues do not come into this and if they do we deal with them in the appropriate way.

Bespin
It really isn't in the spirit of MN talk guidelines to lie about what women on this thread have said about requesting females for intimate care like smears.

I think the guidelines still apply to you even though you get special consideration from the mods.

Totally agree and this is exactly. What happens now. No one as a issue with this and in reality it happens very infrequently. I have a firend who is a trans gynaecologist and you know how many issues she as had none. We face these sort of issues all the time younger nurses routinely get asked by older people to get someone more qualified and if they are insistent then we do that. No one wishes to cause anyone distress as it's not helpful to positive health outcomes and makes the job harder

Bespin but no one has said no to trans nurses wholesale.

The only issue being discussed is that, for some procedures, patients might prefer a same sex HCP and that, if one is requested, then a same sex HCP should be provided because the comfort and dignity of the patient is more important than the feelings of the HCP.

As we have got on to trans nurses yet again, and you have all again decided that even toughyou have never meet a trans nurse or talked to one. That we have certain motivations for doing what we do. So as a trans nurse I thought I might enlighten you all as to the reality of being a trans nurse yet again.

Quick side note on dsm5 dysphoria as been changed from a mental disorder but is still in there just not a disorder.

Right first off having worked on wards and in the community do you know how many times in the last 10 years that this as come up as an actual issue once. And that was at the point I transisioned and it was the organisation who highlighted it and used the positive discrimination in the equality act to limit areas of my practice this was done in consultation with me and while it is hard to hear that you can not do aspects of a role you are trained to do and as a professional want to carry out. We put them in place and there was no issue around that. This was done as I did not have a GRC at the time. So for everyone who thinks the equality act is not used in this way it is all the time and it is done in agreement with people I was offered an alternative role if I did not wish to remain in my post.

Right patent interaction you know how many times people have asked if I'm trans none, I tend to put this down to people having more. Pressing matters when they are in hospital and wanting someone who knows what they are doing looking after them.

The smear issue which I have never done and would not choose to do as its not my area of nursing. If I was in that area I would not do them as the potential for issues would be high and I no one comes to work to cause people issues.

The point I always make is that BAME nursing face people bit wanting them to care for them every day in this country and what usually happens when they do is that they get someone else if they can or with current shortages more often now explain that they are the only. Person available at that time and if the person would like the care now then they will have to have them Or some one can come later. Most people choose to have there care done all patents have a right to decline care and to say that we do not put them first is a misrepresentation of our profession.

If you still feel that we should not be in nursing then by all means come and join the profession God knows we could do with the people right now and then see for yourself the real issues that we face and not the made up ones you all keep talking about.

Yep. Not doing it. If refusal causes someone to file a complaint against me or threaten to do so? Bring it on, the answer is still no.

I understand male behaviour, I’ve been dealing with it all my life, but the idea of dealing with male behaviour modified into a version of their idea of female behaviour is a layer of weird that I just can’t deal with when I‘ve got my legs wide apart and my genitals exposed.

I think this pretty much sums it up for me.

I think it’s because the line between sex and identity is so blurred. Sexual feelings have absolutely no place in healthcare, where as issues of identity for a tW are being pulled into healthcare, and I don’t see how the TWs feelings about female genitalia don’t cross over into the sexual. If you’ve spent your entire life wishing you had a vagina, I expect the vast vast majority of those thoughts have been centred on sex, not gynaecological health checks. 99.9% of the time men view, and are taught to view vaginas as fuck holes, because that is the only experience most of them will ever have related to one. Women experience the messy, painful, problematic business of actually having a vagina without being allowed to talk about it, because men don’t want to know about our dirty fuck holes unless they are fucking them. In that case how can TWs thoughts and feelings about female genitalia be informed by anything other than sex?
Like I stated above, I wouldn’t rule out allowing a man to perform a smear. I recognise that men view vaginas as fuck holes and I also recognise creepy behaviour so it would immediately be kicked out of the park if I suspected it. It’s the disingenuousness of somebody telling me they’re a woman, and that they empathise, and that they understand me that I find irreconcilably uncomfortable, because I know they aren’t, and they can’t, and that it’s utterly arrogant and deluded of them to think that and expect me to accept it.

Anyway I’m going to shut up now. I think you get the drift.

It’s not being Male per se for me either. I’ve had Male gynaes and been ok with it. I’ve also refused Male practitioners who made me feel unpleasant- one came out with the ‘if you can have sex you can have a smear’ with a leer and that was my cue to tell him that yes I could have a smear but he wouldn’t be doing it - the conflation of a speculum with sex in his mind was disquieting to say the least. No you aren’t going to fuck me with a speculum, you can fuck off, pal.

With a transwoman I feel the issue of coercion into consent is troublesome, and I feel the relationship with the female body is troublesome as well. I have no way of knowing if the person is a genuinely dysphoric decent person or someone with AGP. If the latter, I’m then participating in a sexual act against my will with them. Just as I felt with Mr. ‘If you can have sex..’

I think you explained yourself well, hot

I always thought it was because they were male, but after this thread, I think it is more complicated than that.

I don't want to walk on eggshells while in having an intimate procedure performed on me. Any other male nurse, I can talk about my discomfort, be honest and suggest ways which make it more comfortable for me. I couldn't do that in this scenario, I dont feel I couldn't mentioned the fact that they are trans, or male. Therefore my feelings would come second.

Because if people can't cope with being referred to as male on FWR, they are not going to cope with it face to face, are they?

Soon as I click post I always realise that I haven’t explained myself very clearly.
TW who is trained to perform smears will no doubt at some point have thought about what it would be like to have a smear done, either to their own body or the body they wish they had. Human nature and their very being a TW would make it impossible not to. It may have been a fleeting thought or it could have been hours, days of fixation, but at the point where that TW walks into the room I have no idea, but the point is, however often they have had those thoughts, and no matter how much those thoughts have informed their performance as an HCP, those thoughts will never be based on actually having a female body, and being on the other end of that speculum.
I have a very deep seated hatred of men projecting what they think my experience of being a woman should be on their treatment of me, it’s what I’ve spent my entire life railing against. The thought of having a man who thinks he is a woman projecting onto me creeps me out massively. I understand male behaviour, I’ve been dealing with it all my life, but the idea of dealing with male behaviour modified into a version of their idea of female behaviour is a layer of weird that I just can’t deal with when I‘ve got my legs wide apart and my genitals exposed.

Ok i’ve been having a little think about this. I always prefer to have a woman to do a smear test, although it’s not inconceivable that I would give permission for it to be done by a man if circumstances required. I’ve been poking around in my brain to try to get to the bottom of the reason why I would feel uncomfortable with a TW, and I think it goes something like this;
A woman knows what it’s like to have a female body and has probably had a smear test herself, so will understand fully the experience I’m going through.
A man will understand that he doesn’t have a female body, and that he can never understand what it’s like to have a smear, so will not presume knowledge beyond his medical training.
TW may believe that they are actually a woman and project what they think the experience of a smeer test would be like onto their intimate care of female patients. This is not only unethical and unprofessional, it’s dangerous.
I don’t want to be treated by any HCP who assumes knowledge of something they’ve never experienced. This by nature is a prejudice and exactly the kind of thing that has no place in healthcare.

A program on Body dismorphia was on bbc1 last night. I didn't watch it all but what I saw was fascinating. It was not gender disphoria but there was obviously a connection. The help given was CBT/Talking therapies and no question that it wasn't a mental health issue.

I really recommend watching it (I'll be finishing it later). Needless to say I have a great deal of sympathy for sufferers.

Lang Cleveland

I agree. I just disagree with the "it's considered to be a mental illness" and therefore also is a mental illness...

but gender dysphoria is no longer categorised as a mental disorder

DSM5 and ICD10 would both disagree with you.

I think any TIM (what am I supposed to say now? TIXY or something?) who is a decent person, with respect for women, would avoid working in roles with vulnerable women that could cause them distress.

Just like a decent person with Tourettes wouldn't opt to work as a nurse giving smears because their condition may inadvertently cause distress to someone in a vulnerable state.

Sometimes you have to accept that your condition or illness makes you inappropriate for a particular role. Its a pisser because everyone would like to have the freedom to do and be what they want, but there are other people to consider.