Can we be honest about the need for affirmation?

I feel that incorrect pronouns use is deeply offensive and demeaning to me. Validate that.

And if, like so many of these 'transwomen' are saying now, that they've been women all their lives and have the same lived experience of females.

Surely they'd empathise and understand the lived experience of women who request biological females for their smears, understanding the concerns and feelings of those women who feel uncomfortable in the presence of 'female penis'? Just as the transwomen can't exist in male-spaces as they feel uncomfortable, so we all need to budge over as females?

Oh, wait now...

I don't see why the woman's affirmation is of less value than the trans identified male, and vice versa. No pronouns here.

although i very much recognise the black nurse scenario posted by whatzat, race analogies don't quite work.

yes the old man was being racist. but the woman who asks for a female bodied person to perform her smear test isn't being sexist. it is the class of men who have the structural power over women, just as white people have structural power over black people. there are times it would be appropriate for a black person to request to see another black person - as a counsellor perhaps. there are times it is appropriate for a female to ask that she sees another female and a smear test is one of those times. genitals are often the area of the body targeted in sexual assault. it is reasonable for a female to want to exercise a degree of consent over who touches them.

And realised I'm derailing myself: back to Fortunate's question:

• It seems obvious that this could lead to serious conflicts of interests. For example, in the case of the woman who asked for a female nurse to carry out her smear test, and was faced with a trans nurse.

Here, when the patients needs should be paramount, she instead becomes either a cause of huge distress, or a vehicle to experience the reward of validation. Either way, it is difficult to see how her needs could be centred against the pull of such a powerful motivation. Do eg hospitals, rape crisis centres recognise this dynamic?

Either it is a big deal that a trans person has their identity affirmed, in which case it should also be recognised that this can cause conflicts of interest in situations where affirmation or not is a factor (ie performing smear tests, working in a women’s refuge)

Or it’s not that big of a deal if a trans person has their identity affirmed and therefore they won’t be offended when a patient asks for a female nurse to carry out their smear.

Does the female have to capitulate to an smear test by a transwoman to validate their feelings? Or does an intimate biological exam trump the feelings of men?

Re the nurse surely it's more of an issue for a female to be intimately examined by a biological man under the guise that he is female and therefore no chaperone would be required than it is for a transwoman not to be validated. The latter involves hurt feelings but the former shouldn't even be allowed

And I have never known an overweight person being told they are unsightly and have to use the disabled changing room.

This is gaslighting to the extreme. Having a penis = any difference females have amongst themselves.

Have these people ever lived amongst women!

difference. Like telling an overweight woman that she is unsightly and has to use the disabled changing room so as not to offend the other women

It's not that we are OFFENDED (TRAs have the monopoly on that) it's that penises rape people and vulvas do not therefore we don't want penises in women's spaces because it is a safeguarding issue

Patients needing medical attention isn't the time for transgender HCP to seek affirmation of their gender. It doesn't matter if it outs or others the HCP.

This. The HCP needs to remember what the purpose of their job is. It's to provide care to patients. They can get their affirmation when they're not at work. If they can't deal with this, maybe they need to think about getting another job which doesn't involve providing care for vulnerable and/or sick people.

It’s interesring that you took the POV of the nurse in the scenario, rather than the patient.

Yes. The patient's feelings were considered problematic and all the sympathy was for the male person.

I don't think an adult with a penis should be using a female changing room. I mean, how many times do we have to say NO to this and still you persist in pushing it forward.

If the men's isn't safe because said TW is vulnerable to attack there then why are women not in danger from said penis-bearing TW in their changing room?

I went swimming today and the changing room was communal.
At my old gym it was communal too. No cubicles. So if my 14 year old niece gets changed in there is it right that a penis bearer also does? No. If he thinks he is female it makes no difference.

It's up to TW to campaign for a third space so their penises aren't brought into women's areas. So what if you have to change in the loo?! Not women's problem if the male changing room is too dangerous. Go and tell the men. Go on! Tell men to stop being violent. Tell men to stop having issues with effeminate men. Leave women out of your social experiments

Black rather than back.

Gib Did you know there are Black females who would like you to stop treating them like they are males? Take my word for it. There are.

Can we stop using race and size as being analogous for sex. Fat women and back women are subsets of women. Transwomen are a subset of men. It is a false equivalence.

I think you're right Fortunate. It's all about validation.

@Whatzat298

I'm not sure wanting a "proper English nurse" over a black nurse is actually the same.

This is about the sex of the HCP.

I think women (and men) needing intimate care, such as a smear test (or prostate exam), should have the right to be treated by someone of the same biological sex. If we're talking about a natal woman having a smear test carried out by a transwoman then....no, the transwoman shouldn't just "deal with" the fact that they are being misgendered. They shouldn't be in the room at all unless the woman with her legs akimbo in the couch has consented to being treated by a transwoman specifically.

It is male entitlement to demand that transgender identified males be affirmed as women by others while a women's right to affirmation of her right to privacy and dignity is unimportant.

I think gib needs to start their own threads so they can talk about what they want to talk about and leave us to carry on with the conversation.

Thanks for your answer Whatzat. (especially for not diverting it to pilates classes)

So what I'm hearing from your answer is it's sad for trans people, cos people like the woman in question misgendered them. Not sad for the female who requested a female person to carry out an intimate procedure, for whatever reasons she had? And got a clearly male-bodied person?

So a female requesting a female to carry out a smear test is analogous to a racist.

This is where we are.

This?

Where's the balance you mention? Where's the balance for females?

Where's the dignity, privacy that was written into equality law for females, just as it is for race, sexual orientation?

Where's the balance that means UNICEF are campaigning for sex-segregated places in other countries to allow girls to develop, study, and live?

You're obliterating sex in favour of gender feelz.

Because Gib prefers to not engage with the direct issue of a woman's consent to being touched by a man being overridden.

Why the derailing gib?

So, do you believe that a patient should be able to refuse a smear test by a black nurse?

Do eg hospitals, rape crisis centres recognise this dynamic?

Any sensible provider of health care would understand that when someone asks for a female or women hcp to perform a procedure, the patient means female in the biological sense.

Patients needing medical attention isn't the time for transgender HCP to seek affirmation of their gender. It doesn't matter if it outs or others the HCP.

I think it's a balance, like lots of things are.

Is the harm done by misgendering something that is worth dealing with for the sake of a patient's peace of mind. I know one nurse friend of mine worked with an old man who had massive issues with her because she's Black and foreign and he kept calling her racial epithets and claiming he couldn't understand her because of her accent and wanted a "proper English nurse". Obviously that was hurtful to her, but she sucked it up and was polite and professional because that's her job, and when he insisted he couldn't understand a word she said, she got an English nurse as he just wouldn't talk to her.

I'd say that's an analogy. Sometimes nurses deal with this stuff and it's hurtful, but they stay profesional. I imagine that's how it must work for trans people working with folk who misgender them. It's upsetting, but at times you just deal and rely on professionalism.

I don't think there's a clear dichotomy between a) it's a big deal and so we must assume trans people can't do their job (which this post seems to be angling for) or b) they can do their jobs and so it's clearly no big deal.

Let's post Fortunate's question again, as it seems to have been derailed by an answer about toilets and a pilates class.

• For example, in the case of the woman who asked for a female nurse to carry out her smear test, and was faced with a trans nurse.

Here, when the patients needs should be paramount, she instead becomes either a cause of huge distress, or a vehicle to experience the reward of validation. Either way, it is difficult to see how her needs could be centred against the pull of such a powerful motivation. Do eg hospitals, rape crisis centres recognise this dynamic?

Either it is a big deal that a trans person has their identity affirmed, in which case it should also be recognised that this can cause conflicts of interest in situations where affirmation or not is a factor (ie performing smear tests, working in a women’s refuge)

Or it’s not that big of a deal if a trans person has their identity affirmed and therefore they won’t be offended when a patient asks for a female nurse to carry out their smear.

Answers in relation to the above question, not toilets, not pilates classes.