Can we be honest about the need for affirmation?

I don't understand why posters like Gibb talk about transwomen being 'outed' that suggests they really think women haven't noticed they are really a man. Because in the mythical situation where a Transwoman genuinely passes it wouldn't really be an obvious issue.

Which leads me to the conclusion we are damaging transwomen's mental health by being polite and using female pronouns since it then causes them more trauma when someone is less polite or doesn't realise they were pretending to be a woman.

I don't actually mind a man giving me exams I probably wouldn't mind a transwomen either - I trust that they are a hcp and just doing their job.
I would however object to a transwomen midwife.

I don't need to justify my reason, the same as people not wanting transwomen to give them intermate exams don't need to justify their reason.

Women do not have to accept intermate care from men.

I think for some transwomen, clearly affirmation is a conflict of interest. If their personal affirmation wasn't important, why are they pushing to do things that may require an actual female, such as midwife, rape centre etc. Why not start a transwomen rape centre if its not about affirmation and you just want to help victims. Why not be a nurse but say your happy not to give smears - I can't imagine it's a highlight of the job anyway.

Gib hates women simple as

If I asked the man in the street do you think it's bigoted for me to request a female do an intimate exam I very much doubt the man would think that. Your average man would totally get it.

Yet here we are being told we are bigoted for refusing a male. Ridiculous.

Good point Bloodmagic.

bewilderness - yes, the shouting at a group of bow headed women was disturbing viewing. The sense of fear was palpable.

@Fortunatecookie

Thank you for bringing this up. I hadn't considered it but it is important.

If people want to claim that misgendering is this terrible deeply upsetting thing that makes people kill themselves, then no transwomen can EVER be a suitable healthcare provider for a woman.

Imagine an OBGYN who comes into the room and before the consultation he says "Just so we're clear, if you upset me or refuse anything on the basis that I'm a man its possible that i'll kill myself, or at the very least make a huge fuss and tell everyone that you're an awful person. Now what can I do for you?"

The patient CAN'T be expected to even ask for what they want in that situation, and they can't be considered to be given patient centered care at all, no matter what happens next. I'm fine with a male OBGYN, I have one, I'm not fine with a male OBGYN I feel I can't say no to without creating a whole big thing.

Transwoman healthcare providers are obviously not saying that stuff to their patients, but we as a society are saying it all the time and even making laws about it. So when a woman goes to see a doctor and its turns out he's a transwoman, how can she be expected to ask for what she needs? How can we ever consider HER capable of receiving patient centred care in that situation?

(not saying a transperson isn't capable of PROVIDING patient centred care, that individual transperson might not even give half a shit about misgendering, but in a society where we're told over and over that not pretending transwomen are women is basically killing them and is a hatecrime, how can a woman advocate for herself enough to RECIEVE patient centred care?)

As always, any TW who insists their right to perform a smear (for example) overrides patient comfirt and sense of safety is the very sort of person who ahould not be allowed anywhere near women.

Exactly.

some people's motivations I should have said.

I have had a male at the birth of one of my children. It fidn't bother me at the time or since

I have the right to he treated by anyone I choose.

I would preferred to be treated by a female.
I would consent to he treated by a man in some cicrumstances.
I would not consent to being treated by a TW.

There is a time when i wouldn't have been bothered but now i understand more about their motivations there is no chance.

As always, any TW who insists their right to perform a smear (for example) overrides patient comfirt and sense of safety is the very sort of person who ahould not be allowed anywhere near women.

No I am saying that if a patient refuses to be examined by a black nurse that is prejudice and should be unacceptable. If a patient refuses to be seen by a trans woman, that is comparable prejudice and equally should he unacceptable.

How the fuck is that comparable prejudice? The black nurse is a woman, the trans woman is a man.

Women have the right to say no to men. It is essential that that right is preserved.

The patient's needs (including their psychological needs)are paramount. If a HCP is unable to handle that then they need to look for another job, one that doesn't involve giving intimate care to people.
Both men and women are entitled to ask for a person of the same sex when it comes to intimate care, quite rightly too.
Saying a woman is 'bigoted' because she doesn't want to receive a smear test from a TIM is just one step away from rape culture and the cotton ceiling. A woman's private parts are not an equal opportunity area.

I think it was, Empress.
That moment when the transgender person realized that no one there viewed them as a woman and they realized that they could not make them believe, no matter how loud they shouted.

It drives TRAs mad that no one actually believes they are women.
The one thing they can't control is our thoughts, and that's crazy making.

That was the takeaway from Celebrity Big Brother, wasn't it?

No matter how hard they try to make it penetrate, ultimately everyone knows the truth.

Mamaryllis. That's why gib calls Vancouver Rape Relief odious. Because a rape relief organisations doesn't affirm a TIM gender identity at the expense of women, to gib it's odious.

that too bewilderness

I wish that people would understand that I can sympathise with a person's distress, but that at the point I have to accept their delusion when it's to my detriment, I draw the line

I am not transphobic

So many great lines in this thread! Cosplay!

Ironic, isn't it, that a movement that touts itself as being all about finding one's true identity and genuine self is fully based on validation by others.

Now that seems OK to me.

Do you understand that you are trying to negotiate the reasons acceptable to you for a woman to say no to having a man shove a speculum into her vagina?

Just to make it crystal clear: no transwoman has had a smear

All woman (certainly all HCP women) has had a smear

Now that seems OK to me. I see nothing wrong in saying "This makes me queasy. Have you had a smear test yourself?" if she answers no, then I think that is reasonable grounds to object. You aren't objecting in any way because she is trans, just asking for someone who has had it done

Nice of you to finally understand the point. A person without a cervix, a person who may well have a penis is a transwomen ie. a man.

All woman - certainly all women HCPS - have had a smear

Hoist by your own petard

This reminds me of Kimberly Nixon. So desperate for validation that he dragged Vancouver Rape Relief through expensive court processes in pursuit of his right to access rape victims. And bully boy Morgane Oger demanding the place is shut down because they won the right legally to refuse to validate a transwoman's 'womanhood'.
The problem is, lip service and pronouns aren't enough. It drives TRAs mad that no one actually believes they are women. The one thing they can't control is our thoughts, and that's crazy making. Even with Bill C-16 and compelled speech, they can't control our thoughts. They will go to insane lengths to compel validation. Bless Gibber for trying, but it's never going to work. Men cannot change sex. There is literally no guff you can spout that will make it true. No law can alter reality.

GibbertyFlibbert

If a transwoman has AGP and is getting aroused by their validation as a woman HCP whenever they practice, is it still bigotry for the patient to refuse a smear from them?

For the record Gib I don't need anyone to help me understand a smear test seeing as I am of the sex that actually needs one.

I'd love you to use that patronising twaddle on a man who has requested a male HCP to do a prostate examination.

want a world in which same-sex couples can hold hands on the street

It's bizarre and just awful that we don't have this, even with same sex marriage. It's still unusual to see same sex couples holding each other in public. Even though it's so celebrated with #pride etc. It's like with women generally, empowerment is so celebrated and the talk of the town, but women still get treated like nothing.

'...but I can tell you now that you won't get there by intimidating women, invading our spaces, and denying biology.'

And the more that TRAs deny biology the less we females feel safe with the idea that anyone identifys as a woman is one. With old school transsexuals I was not worried, now I am. It's not necessarily about safety (although sometimes it is). Sending in a trans woman to do a smear when a female has been requested is a massive insult to the woman, it is saying we know what you need but we think we know better!