Why is misgendering a big deal?

roses

What do you mean by mental detriment? That it will upset so and so if we don't lie about them? And that is the only argument why I should agree that man is woman..because someone may be upset?!? Not because it's actually true. You know it's not true so instead you seek to use emotional blackmail to try to get people to lie. That is the only line of argument..be nice. Lie-but be nice. Sounds like rape culture to me. Don't say no to the poor man..don't make him feel bad.

I consider it far better to have integrity. I will not lie just because someone tells me "bad things will happen if you don't".

It sounds horribly like something an abuser would say-lie or you will see what you have done to me.

Women recognise this behaviour and this woman isn't conned by it

Hide, pronouns are attributable on the basis of sex. If some kept getting my sex wrong I'd be baffled but that's not the same thing as them failing to recognise my sacred two spirit gender or whatever.

I'm saying that if traumatic experiences in your past have forced you to rebel against requests, because you feel there is some coercion there even when there isn't, you need to get that looked at, because that will impact both you and others.

“Rebel against requests” is an interesting turn of phrase, there.

And Erishkigal said “no” to that request, and you said this:

If - and this is in the kindest way possible - you are actively contributing to the detriment of someone else's mental health because you don't like doing things which you perceive as being coercive, I think you do need some help. I have the utmost sympathy for your situation and think it's awful that something has happened to you. But if the belief that you are being "forced" is solely what means you would find it difficult to respond to a trans person's request to call them by the correct pronouns - especially if this is directly harmful and not just uncomfortable for them - then your past experience is impacting your life and how you interact with others. This won't just impact them but it must be impacting you too.

Erishkigal said “no” to that request, and you replied that she is actively contributing to the detriment of someon else’s mental health.

You are saying that Erishkigal saying “no” to something because she doesn’t believe it is true is actively harming others.

That is indeed coercive.

I'm saying that it would be beneficial for said women to try and overcome that phobia, because it's very very difficult to go through life avoiding men completely.

Seriously? You have the gall to post that while expecting others to dance around pronouns to avoid the oh so serious consequences that misgendering has?

You have a brazen cheek posting that, roses. A fuck load of brazen cheek.

Still does not make them women, though. They are still men.

To go through life only acting in your interests without taking in anybody else into account is to go through life selfishly.

But this is exactly what a radical section of trans activists are doing. They are demanding that their interests are placed above anyone else and that their right to validation in their chosen identity is more important than the experience of those who have lived that experience their whole lives.

What does people becoming more functional with treatment have to do with sex being an objective set of organic, physical attributes, not a sense of self?

It validates the idea that cross sex gender identity is a legitimate part of human identity and not a delusion like having 3 eyes with which you compared and contrasted it to earlier.

But drawing upon 'internalised ideas about sex' is one's gender identity. I see gender identity development being like some sort of imprinting process, with biological and environmental antecedents. You probably completely disagree with that? Once it has developed it is permanent because core gender identity forms during the process of individuation.

For most people that imprinting process (or gender identity individuation) aligns with their physical sex. But for some, for whatever reason, it doesn't.

The criteria that determine sex don't have to be changed for someone to be able to alter enough physical characteristics to alleviate their gender dysphoria. The fact that a trans woman was 'born of the class that produce sperm' doesn't mean they can't alter themselves enough to bring their physical body and the perceptions of others around them to more closely match their core gender identity.

Indeed, Oscarino: The position is not "use this pronoun, it's such a little thing to ask and it means so much". The position is "I am entitled to everything you have, everything you have fought and worked so hard for. I want it and I will have it and there's nothing you can do about it"

The only possible response to that kind of bullying is to say NO

I don't subscribe to their toxic, nonsensical belief system and do not wish to perpetuate it or collude in my own oppression by males. Any attempt to guilt me into it is manipulative emotional blackmail. I resistant to this, not least as a former victim of such abusive tactics and it makes me feel controlled and bullied. What about that is so terribly hard to grasp?

You are mainly speaking about the use of pronouns and chosen names when in fact any suggestion that transwomen are not entitled to be viewed in all cases as women is misgendering and transphobic.

Because the majority of these people have stated they wouldn't use these pronouns - awful, IMO. None of them have answered my question … just called it emotional blackmail. It's interesting to think about what someone would say.

As I've stated in earlier posts, there are environments where I can understand discomfort and it's not fair to prioritise someone's discomfort over another's. But as I said in my last one - I'm leaving this here. It's clear this will never be fruitful.

Teens are often told that bullying them could severely impact the victim

Referring to males as male is not bullying. Transactivists are the bullies here.

As this debate has literally reached the point where I'm being told it's emotionally manipulative to say that your actions could have a severe negative consequence to others - WTF - imagine if the world was run like this - I think it's time to leave it.

Good day. I honest to God hope that none of you are raising your children to believe that it's blackmail to be told that you should take the affect on other people into account when making decisions.

And, as stated, you can be supportive of the end of both sex-based and gender-based discrimination. It's not necessarily pernicious to one to support the other.

Wrong. That's not my belief. Transactivists don't accept that sex is a meaningful category and are doing all they can to erase it and make women's sex based oppression invisible. I will not collude in that.

Roses
I think a major point of difference here may be in what is seen as mis-gendering. You are mainly speaking about the use of pronouns and chosen names when in fact any suggestion that transwomen are not entitled to be viewed in all cases as women is misgendering and transphobic.

The position is not "use this pronoun, it's such a little thing to ask and it means so much". The position is "I am entitled to everything you have, everything you have fought and worked so hard for. I want it and I will have it and there's nothing you can do about it"

The only possible response to that kind of bullying is to say NO

We should all retain the right to use the correct pronouns if we should so wish, even if I feel it’s wrong to do so.

Everyone has the right to do that. That's not something I can change.

And yes, I concur that to insinuate if in doing so, you are responsible for someone’s mental health, I am enabling controlling and forced behaviour. And that’s not on.”

You are not responsible for their feelings and mental health.

But I feel that there are very few excuses for deliberately doing something you know could impact someone's mental health, when you literally just not do that and be about your day.

Reminding others that their behaviour can have consequences is not controlling or abusive, it's fact. It's not manipulative to tell you that your behaviour could affect others. Teens are often told that bullying them could severely impact the victim. Is this "manipulation"? No, it's fact, and they're told these facts so they can try and exhibit basic human decency when interacting with classmates.

But it kind of worked well in the flow! You are absolutely right it’s about control.

I thank you and all the regular posters for your input. Lurking is my usual state but sometimes I’m so irked I have to pop up.

It doesn't make me feel sad. It makes me note that you are attempting to emotionally blackmail me to coerce me to act in a way injurious to my interests.

If I'm making a choice, I factor in how it would affect other people. If I could steal my co-worker's money, then yes, that would be beneficial to my interests. It would also negatively impact my co-worker. To take the money would be selfish and cruel.

To go through life only acting in your interests without taking in anybody else into account is to go through life selfishly. To accuse everybody pointing out how others might be affected by those decisions of "emotional blackmail" is ludicrous.

And, as stated, you can be supportive of the end of both sex-based and gender-based discrimination. It's not necessarily pernicious to one to support the other.

That wasn't directed at you Woman.

So really what you're saying is that it's about control. No argument there. It's a power game.

There are countless lurkers on this thread willing Roses to have the guts to say:

“Yeah, you’re right.

We should all retain the right to use the correct pronouns if we should so wish, even if I feel it’s wrong to do so.

And yes, I concur that to insinuate if in doing so, you are responsible for someone’s mental health, I am enabling controlling and forced behaviour. And that’s not on.”

The thinly veiled threats that misgendering causes mental distress makes a mockery of the denial that “of course no one is forcing anyone to do anything.”

I came to this debate on the fence, but it’s the trans advocates that have peak transed me.

If I see a man in a female space he's going to know full well I think he's a man. Whether I speak it or not.

Because in one instance, the issue the person has with society can be changed.

No it can't. As some people are going to fail to play along.

A person who becomes suicidal when someone doesn’t use their preferred pronouns is similarly unable to cope in society. It is similarly unreasonable to expect that the whole world will go along with a person’s preferred pronouns.

But, again, in one instance you are saying that the world needs to change, and in the other instance you are saying that the individual needs to change.

Because in one instance, the issue the person has with society can be changed. The issue is the way people behave towards them. So, if people change how they behave towards them, they can fix it.

In the other, the issue the person has is that a group of people which make up around half of the population exist within society. Those people can't just disappear.

A person who becomes suicidal when someone doesn’t use their preferred pronouns is similarly unable to cope in society. It is similarly unreasonable to expect that the whole world will go along with a person’s preferred pronouns.

THIS. It is not possible to remodel the world and other people to affirm your notions and worldview in every way.

I find it strange that some of the posters who are upset by misgendering are happy to call women 'Cis'.