Why is misgendering a big deal?

It sticks in the throat the most when actual females are ignoring females' NOs and continue to state the males' case.

I know. Mine too. But patriarchy is hard to escape.

People who refuse to take no for an answer are not safe to be around

It's a huge red flag. I always point this out to young girls I know. People who refuse to hear NO are dangerous

Well that was interesting, she spent the whole day saying be nice or they will die. She seemed very surprised it didn't work.

I know!

Do you remember being a teen and being told by males that (words to the effect of) if you "get him all hot" and then say no to sex he will literally die?

That's what it all reminded me of. Don't say no to me or I will die. It sticks in the throat the most when actual females are ignoring females' NOs and continue to state the males' case.

The legitimacy of their identities and transition means that most women have the decency and respect to welcome them into female sex segregated spaces.

The fact that most women do not is the basis for the narcissistic ranting and rage and death threats by transgender identified males every effing day all over the interwebs.
Seriously! I have read three page rants over a woman giving a TIM the side eye as they waited for them to leave the loo so the women could use it.

Rose, you have totally embarrassed yourself with your complete lack of understanding of therapy with respect to gender identity. You have swallowed hook line and sinker the complete fallacy that therapy is conversion based. This is the lie that led to the accusations against the Transgender Trend school kit. No one in the UK practises gender conversion therapy, nor recommends it.
By continuing to claim that conversion therapy exists and causes suicide in the UK, you are using emotive lies to claim victimhood. Stop it. It’s not true, and you clearly have no idea or experience of what you are arguing.

Trying to devalue trans people instead of just combatting both types of oppression is not only counter-productive and requiring of a lot of energy you could be putting into something else, but it can be very harmful to an extremely oppressed group

Who is devaluing trans people? Is this like the "TERFs try to deny the existence of trans people" claim? Ie complete bollocks?

Please tell me how trans people are "an extremely oppressed group"? I get that they suffer from bullying, can be treated incredibly cruelly and subject to physical harm (almost always at the hands of men), but not how that makes them more oppressed than, say, women.

Because the world has gone truly mad. That is it.

I'm not saying women should be forced to share spaces with men if they have an intense phobia of them. I'm saying that it would be beneficial for said women to try and overcome that phobia, because it's very very difficult to go through life avoiding men completely.

1, That word phobia does not mean what you think it means.
2, People who refuse to take no for an answer are not safe to be around.

I like the "compliant individual signalling (cis)" that LaSqrrl came up with.

It signals submission. Just like the tradition of salutes, and tugging the forelock, obedience signals submission to superiors.

Is this really too obvious for people to see?

Well that was interesting, she spent the whole day saying be nice or they will die. She seemed very surprised it didn't work.

Totally agree but we are only talking about women sharing spaces with other women

Gilbert, please see Super’s post above. You are talking about women sharing spaces with women. We are talking about women sharing spaces with men.

Why, @Madethistoaskaquestion ? A quick search of the username reveals the answer to your question (yes she has).

Seriously, if she's posted other threads or commented on them, does anyone have a link??

"No woman should have to have a phobia of men to not want them in her spaces. She should just not want them in her spaces and that wish should be just fine. Men should respect women and leave them the fuck alone."

Totally agree but we are only talking about women sharing spaces with other women

If you see trans women as men and feel that you are being forced to accept them in female space I can see how that could feel like having your boundaries violated as has happened to you before. I feel like that is maybe painful for you (could be wrong) and making you angry. I don't think that is trivial or unreasonable. I don't know what the solution is.

I actually feel quite emotional that someone has finally, finally understood.

Brilliant post on alternative 'genders' in non western cultures, @FermatsTheorem

Or has she commented on other threads?

Does Rosesandflowers have any other threads?

If you see trans women as men and feel that you are being forced to accept them in female space I can see how that could feel like having your boundaries violated as has happened to you before. I feel like that is maybe painful for you (could be wrong) and making you angry. I don't think that is trivial or unreasonable. I don't know what the solution is.

Thank you that we've at least got to the heart of it. Many women feel like this. That's why we are fighting it so hard.

Any attempt to guilt me into it is manipulative

I don't think it needs to be about guilt and you are free to have whatever beliefs you like. As are we all.

Brain tissue is sex steroid sensitive. That is factually correct. It is likely that prenatal hormones have an influence on brain development. That could influence gender identity development along with other factors including environment. The mechanisms governing aetiology are feasible.

Even if it there is no biological component (and most medics/ researchers believe there is) it doesn't invalidate the concept; cross sex gender identity is something that has been observed in clinical settings for many decades.

If society comes to one set of understandings, laws and processes and you are opposed to them then that is your right. If the greater part of society legitimises those standards and ways of being as both custom and law, then of course you have the option to opt out of at least one of those, but not really the other. You can say what you like in your own home, but you can't misgender someone in the workplace and expect to keep your job.

I realise this isn't always the case, if the suffragettes hadn't gone against society and the law then women wouldn't have the vote. But I'm assuming human civilisation is in a different place today and that society is making more rational decisions than it did 100 years ago.

If you see trans women as men and feel that you are being forced to accept them in female space I can see how that could feel like having your boundaries violated as has happened to you before. I feel like that is maybe painful for you (could be wrong) and making you angry. I don't think that is trivial or unreasonable. I don't know what the solution is.

SMG
But drawing upon 'internalised ideas about sex' is one's gender identity. I see gender identity development being like some sort of imprinting process, with biological and environmental antecedents. You probably completely disagree with that? Once it has developed it is permanent because core gender identity forms during the process of individuation. Even if this was the case, it is about a perdon’s gender identity, not their sex

For most people that imprinting process (or gender identity individuation) aligns with their physical sex. But for some, for whatever reason, it doesn't. Agee

The criteria that determine sex don't have to be changed for someone to be able to alter enough physical characteristics to alleviate their gender dysphoria. The fact that a trans woman was 'born of the class that produce sperm' doesn't mean they can't alter themselves enough to bring their physical body and the perceptions of others around them to more closely match their core gender identity. And that is great, if it helps them. However, there are significant reasons for wanting to categorise people according to sex in certain contexts. To this end, we should be able to do so

I am all for categorising by gender identity (so long as ‘none’ is an option) whenever categorising by sex is not significant to a given context.

Because in one instance, the issue the person has with society can be changed. The issue is the way people behave towards them. So, if people change how they behave towards them, they can fix it.

Again, it’s going to be very difficult to get everyone in the world to go along with that. Not just friends, family and co-workers. Everyone, including the cashier at the shop who refers to a person who is obviously male as “sir” when that person identifies as woman. And if one cannot handle that without becoming suicidal, then one cannot function in society.

In the other, the issue the person has is that a group of people which make up around half of the population exist within society. Those people can't just disappear.

No they can’t. But there are society-wide and society-changing ways we could address that. Like addressing male violence and rape culture. And maintaining female-only spaces. And supporting women who wish to have female-only spaces and places.

I'm not saying women should be forced to share spaces with men if they have an intense phobia of them. I'm saying that it would be beneficial for said women to try and overcome that phobia, because it's very very difficult to go through life avoiding men completely.

No woman should have to have a phobia of men to not want them in her spaces. She should just not want them in her spaces and that wish should be just fine. Men should respect women and leave them the fuck alone.

Oh. I made roses leave. I was trying to make the point that me and I’m sure lots and lots of lurkers like me are willing you to show understanding and nuance but you just don’t.its frustrating.

Because I do kind of understand where you are coming from as I am the ultimate floating voter in life, but your argument is deeply flawed. Sos.