Why is misgendering a big deal?

surely pleasant human society is based on not saying things we know will upset others for absolutely no good reason?

Like telling women that they are bigoted for refusing to accept a male-bodied person in a segregated space for females?

Like telling women who are concerned about the proposed changes to the GRA that they are discriminatory for wanting to talk about it and that they must not be allowed to debate?

Like telling women that their language, which identifies and protects them, is transphobic and needs to be amended? Breast-feeding becomes "chest feeding". Pregnant woman becomes "pregnant person". Menstruating woman becomes "person who has periods".

Surely a pleasant society involves being honest and open with each other, not lying or forcing others to lie or collude in a lie, freedom of thought and freedom of speech. Basically everything the TRA agenda is against.

I feel very strongly about having a PhD, about using my name not my husband's name, and about being a female professional. They are all part of my identity and something that women have fought long and hard for.

I get people emailing/writing to me and calling me Mr and also Mrs. Also Mrs DHname. Also Dear Sir.

Yes it's annoying. And yes it's something I'm prepared to complain about. No I'm not going to die of it.

surely pleasant human society is based on not saying things we know will upset others for absolutely no good reason?
If only this was all women had to worry about! Or maybe it's actually okay because many men feel they have a jolly good reason as to why they systematically treat females very differently to their fellow male human beings............

Laydees, be NICE repeated ad infinitum, its your job and we'll get angry if you don't.....................

I'm also wondering if Gib will ever answer my question as to whether a woman is bigoted for refusing a smear test from a man with AGP.

I'm all agog.

What's your position, Gib?

My DH hates sport and enjoys going shopping - does that make him a woman?

I frequently don't wear makeup - does that make me a man?

On Sunday DH was inside doing the ironing whilst I was outside doing some chainsaw work - what does that say about our respective "genders"?

It's nonsense. And what radical TRAs refuse to see is that if you recognise that it is nonsense, then the concept of being "trans" immediately dissolves - because all you are left with is biological sex.

I frequently hear feminists being chastised as "TERFs" because they don't "centre trans-women in their feminism". What radical TRAs won't accept is that the concept of people who feel "trans" is already centred, through the fact that we are trying to erase gender stereotyping. Feminists want to see an end to the societal norms of "being manly" and "being girly". The problem is that this concept does not suit the narrative of the radical TRAs because they want to be a stereotype. They want to "pass".

Now do you see the issue with blindly accepting the trans narrative?

I want to know where the bleeding was coming from in order that a psychotherapist referral was required.

I'm also wondering if Gib will ever answer my question as to whether a woman is bigoted for refusing a smear test from a man with AGP.

Or indeed, if they even have any suggestions as to how we can tell?

Again, trans women don't feel they are women - they know they are women just like we do.

How? Tell me exactly how?

I know I am female because I have the biological traits - breasts, sex organs, hormones, chromosones.

Do I "feel" like a woman? No. I can't tell you what "feeling like a woman" is, because I don't know myself. I'm a person and I go through life like any other.

What I can tell you is that I am frequently reminded of being female when I am treated in ways which are particular to my sex. Here are a few examples:

• When I am sexually harassed;
• When I am paid less than a man;
• When I am asked in an interview if I have children or plan to have them;
• When told that something is "women's work".

So please do explain to me what "feeling like a woman" means? I can't help but notice that all of the examples which are commonly used by radical TRAs are stereotypical gender situations - I like pink, I like playing with "girl's toys", I am not "manly", I am emotional and empathetic. Does that mean that a female who is not emotional, hates pink, likes war games and doesn't give a shit about someone's feelings, is a man?

Really have a think about it, because when you do you'll realise that there is no "feeling" like a woman, or a man. There is our biological sex and the rest is personality and socialisation.

Once more so you can't pretend the thread just ran out of room! Daim and/or Gib, at what point in transition has a person changed sex, and what was the mechanism by which that change occurred?

Will keep asking this until an answer is forthcoming.

YY Poppy exactly.

Given that gender dysphoria is no longer a pre-requisite for being transgender (and I understand from what I’ve read that thinking it is a necessary part is considered transphobic) can someone explain to me why pronouns etc are so important to those people who don’t have GID? That argument doesn’t hold water. You cannot say that failure to use correct pronouns or deadnaming are detrimental to the mental health of trans people because of dysphoria but also demand that those rules are followed for someone who says they are transgender but don’t have GID because that’s not a requirement for being transgender anymore.

Honestly I've always thought of it more in terms of a young woman identifying as non binary.

Everyone is non-binary. Unless you are GI Joe or a disney princess, every person on the planet likes a range of things, some of which are categorised by the patriarchy as 'girls' and some as 'boys'. Feminists have been fighting this bullshit categorisation for decades. Nobody is binary. That is the point.

Again, trans women don't feel they are women - they know they are women just like we do.

But they are not. They can feel all they want but it does not change the reality that they are men.

Usually someone will tell you.

But that doesn't address the complaints from trans people who are upset that they aren't addressed using their preferred pronouns on a daily basis, does it? I've used the NUStrans conference as an example earlier - multiple complaints on twitter of being "misgendered" by hotel staff.

Imagine you are a hotel receptionist. You have hundreds of guests and visitors walking past you every day. Can you see yourself managing to remember to use the correct pronouns (don't forget "ze" for those who identify as non-binary) all of the time - especially where the person looks like their natal sex but "identifies" as the opposite?

In the case of the twitter complaints, they were upset because the initial address "misgendered" them. But if someone who looks, walks and talks like a man arrives at your reception desk, is it really unreasonable to address them as "sir"?

Well they are wrong then

Again, trans women don't feel they are women - they know they are women just like we do.

Good for them. They aren't women though. They can have their own reality but the public at large are under no obligation to believe in it

Again, trans women don't feel they are women - they know they are women just like we do.

They can't "know" they are women. They can only know they don't feel like what they think a man should feel. But they are male. So their feelings are male.

@DailyMailClickbait Usually someone will tell you.

I don't agree with a male who self identifies as a women entering female spaces. That is too far. My support is for only using pronouns in a social sense. Using she doesn't affect your sex it's just a gender identity. Honestly I've always thought of it more in terms of a young woman identifying as non binary.

I know I'm a woman because I was born with a vagina and then when I hit puberty I grew breasts and started menstruating, so no.

"access to sex segregated spaces simply because they "feel" like a woman."

Again, trans women don't feel they are women - they know they are women just like we do.

"I don't FEEL I'm a sex. I AM a sex. What you're describing is completely subjective, meaningless and cannot be tested. "

Exactly how trans women feel, I understand.

I just don't see the issue with using pronouns or names, if it helps someone accept themselves.

We've already covered how difficult it would be for people to judge - bearing in mind that some TIMs have full male features such as beards but expect to be addressed as "She".

But it doesn't stop at simply using pronouns and names. It's progressed to male-bodied persons demanding - and in some cases receiving - access to sex segregated spaces simply because they "feel" like a woman. You have a MH condition which can be triggered, so surely you can understand how a woman who has survived sexual violence might not want to share a bathroom with a man? That if she needs to go for a smear test she will be seen by a woman and not by someone who "feels" like a woman?

That progression includes TIMs applying for roles in domestic violence refuges, as rape counsellors, offering themselves up when a woman asks for a female HCP for an intimate physical exam. At what point do you think any of that is reasonable? Can you see that if someone genuinely gave a shit about women they would accept that there are going to be situation where a TIM is not welcome? Yet they are shouting about discrimination and having their "existence" denied - which is a clear indicator that this is nothing to do with respect and everything to do with having their chosen identity validated.

I am perfectly happy to call transwomen I know by their chosen name and refer to them as she. Not because I worry about the damage misgendering may do but because because it's polite. In the same way I call teachers Mrs X or whatever even though I know their first names.

But media reports of TIM should not refer to them as women. We shouldn't have to look at a photo or read far down into the article to find the violent offender isn't actually a woman.