Why is misgendering a big deal?

Do you agree with a PP that it might lead to mental health problems or suicide?

Not generally just a one off misgendering. But yes over a period of time it can lead to low self esteem and depression. Some people can lose hope if they can't be seen as the sex they feel they are because of the reality of what that means. I don't deny that for a few individuals there may be co-morbid personality/ narcissistic issues.

I have heard anecdotally that it can contribute to suicide: trans people who go through the whole process including genital surgery, and then expect to walk out into the world and be accepted as a woman, and then find that isn't necessarily the case. That's more than just one misgendering though. And it may even be accidental misgendering - that's no-ones fault of course.

Thanks for asking this question and listening btw I think it's an interesting discussion.

I think a lot of women, gender critical women particularly, do not have a gender identity. It isn't universal yet is treated as greater and more relevant than sex.

I don't think people understand. Her GP referred her to our local hospital because of bleeding. We got there and the consultant refused to see her and said she should instead see a psychiatrist about her bleeding. That's the reality of being trans. It can be that the misgendering is a trigger but it also piles on top of years of facing discrimination.

Misgendering someone deliberately is saying "I have power over you. I can hurt you. I choose to do so." It's a truly wicked thing to do, especially to a woman because, as we all know, women are more vulnerable than men.

Exactly - and, why exactly should I care which sex the person checking me in at the hotel thinks I look like? What possible bearing does it have on the actions we're both trying to perform.

This is implausibly stupid. Of course it would affect a trans person differently to a cis person! For hugely obvious reasons.

I think it's another case of baffling us with bullshit - grammatical gender is based on the sex of the person, it's distinct from gender as a societal concept (god I wish they'd picked a new word instead of re-using one!)
Pffft. There is nothing inherent about gendered pronouns corresponding with a sex. "Grammatical gender" is part of the social construct rather than the biological fact, and as such falls under how they operate and identify within it, not their chromosomes.

Personally I am very happy to call someone she if that's what they want, or he or they or it. It's no skin off my nose.
I'm fine with calling them by their chosen name too. If a woman wants to be called Arthur, or a man wants to be called Cecilia, I will do that too.
What I can't do though is call a man a woman or vice versa, because it would be a lie.

You will never be able to experience anybody else's gender. You will never be in their psychological state of mind. If you are cisgender, you will never experience what it is to be genderfluid, or trans, or two-spirit.

There is no such thing as gender chuck.
There are no girls toys and boys toys - there are just toys.
There are no such jobs as girls jobs and boys jobs - there are just jobs.
There is no such things as CIS in terms of gender, that is made up to 'other' women who are getting mightily fucked off that Trans women are trying to pretend that trans is a subset of women, like Black women, or Scottish women.
I have never met a man who conforms 100% to 'gender stereotypes' and never met a woman who conforms 100% to 'gender stereotypes'. If you are going down the road of 'gender' then everyone is 'non-binary'.

I mean come on, do some fucking homework.

If people at work were to call me a bloke, so what? I mean, I'm short even for a woman and have massive boobs and obviously female facial features, so it would be a bit baffling, for others as much as for me, but ultimately what does it matter? I know what sex I am

Exactly - and, why exactly should I care which sex the person checking me in at the hotel thinks I look like? What possible bearing does it have on the actions we're both trying to perform.

I think it's another case of baffling us with bullshit - grammatical gender is based on the sex of the person, it's distinct from gender as a societal concept (god I wish they'd picked a new word instead of re-using one!)

It's the same switcheroo they do by getting you to say that woman is a gender, not a sex, therefore everything that was actually designed for women (thinking female) should actually be for them as women (thinking societal gender)

"I’m sorry to hear your partner was not well GibbertyFlibbert. Can I ask why that affected your partner so much?"

She as a GRC and despite telling people here and pointing out that her sex and gender are legally female, some posters carried on calling her male and he. It was done in the full knowledge of the hurt it was causing

What does 'put your own experience over theirs' mean?
My experience of other human beings tells me that:
1. Sometimes people are mistaken in their beliefs about themselves
2. Sometimes they are not speaking in good faith.

Does your experience of humanity not tell you the same?

Yes, but how is somebody supposed to be more mistaken about their gender than you?

You will never be able to experience anybody else's gender. You will never be in their psychological state of mind. If you are cisgender, you will never experience what it is to be genderfluid, or trans, or two-spirit.

If a person says they are trans, there really is hardly any circumstances in which you can somehow know they are not. So to then refuse to accept their gender identity, you are putting your experience of gender over their understanding of their gender - which will always be greater than yours. They are saying they are a girl, you are using your limited experience of "my gender is associated with my sex, as is many other people's" and insisting that everybody's experience of a hugely complex social construct is the same. To the point where you actively misgender them.

That's giving other people huge amounts of power over you, which doesn't seem like a good thing for mental health & wellbeing.

This is very true and it is the trans people that are able to reach a point where they can say that, that are probably happier as people. That and a combination of being able to change physical features enough to reduce dysphoria, which is possible for some people (not all). It doesn't change the fact that misgendering confronts them with a reality that may be painful though. Because it still conflicts with how they see themselves.

'To say you know someone's gender better than they do is to put your own experience of gender over theirs, '

What does 'put your own experience over theirs' mean?
My experience of other human beings tells me that:

1. Sometimes people are mistaken in their beliefs about themselves
2. Sometimes they are not speaking in good faith.

Does your experience of humanity not tell you the same?

No it doesn't. Stop being so melodramatic. It means that you do not believe that humans can change sex. Which they can't. Men need to realise that women will always see them as men, and men will always see them as men. If it is triggering, then they need to see a medical professional.

Interesting how you only discuss trans women - or "men", as you refer to them, in your post.

Gender and sex are different things and always have been. Gender is a social construct and it's mostly due to colonisation and "religious" ideals that we see it as a man/woman binary in our current world. Hugely ignorant of other cultures & history to pretend different.

Someone having a biological sex and their gender not being typically associated with that (in the modern Western view) aren't mutually exclusive.

So your saying that not affirming someone’s identity could actually lead on to major mental health problems? Do you have any evidence for this, or anyone else who backs up this claim?

Not necessarily that it will "lead on", but it can seriously amplify/trigger problems that are already there.

If someone has been through the horrifying process of conversion therapy, where they would most likely be misgendered constantly, to have someone purposefully and spitefully misgender them could trigger traumatic memories. This could lead to panic attacks or harmful coping strategies such as self harm that they use to cope with said memories. If they are already building up to it, it could be a sudden catalyst to an attempted suicide.

Similarly, body dysphoria isn't caused by misgendering. However, misgendering can, in a way "remind" someone that they are trans. Trans people don't go around their everyday lives furiously thinking "I'm he, not she, I'm he not she". Somebody suddenly calling them the incorrect pronouns might force them to become much more self-conscious/aware and bring on discomfort or dysphoria.

I think you can find many stories/accounts/anecdotes from trans people like this. I'll see if I can find any to post to this thread.

What does "accepting someone's gender identity" mean, to you?

It seems like you're saying that thinking sex and gender are different means you're transphobic? I couldn't care less what people look like or dress like, but I don't agree that it is possible to change sex by changing your appearance. I accept people's appearance and personality as who they are, but that apparently isn't enough. I must agree that this is their gender identity, which supersedes and replaces their sex.

No; the opposite, in fact. Generally thinking sex and gender are the same is a sign of transphobia.

Gender identity has nothing to do with personality/clothing. Liking pink and fashion doesn't mean you're a girl. Liking blue and sport doesn't mean you're a boy. Trans people generally try to fit into stereotypes because this just makes their life easier in a culture in which gender stereotypes are very prevalent. It can also soothe dysphoria in some ways because, like I said, gender stereotypes are hugely pervasive currently and it can help.

However, gender is what pronouns are attached to, not sex. Accepting someone's gender identity means, to me, that you understand that you will never be able to control or understand anybody else's gender, and that they are what they are. Preferred pronouns, names and titles are a way of expressing that.

My partner needed therapy after being repeatedly mis-gendered on Mumsnet.

Therapy? Come on now.

The dad was teasing his ≈3 year old daughter by saying 'you're a boy' and she would scream at him 'I'm not a boy I"m a girl' and finally when he did it about the fourth time she just burst into tears screaming 'no, I'm a girl'. Her mum then shouted at him to stop winding her up. Most humans have a strong built in need to be seen as the sex they know, or feel, they are

Yes - he was lying to a 3 year old. Completely different from refusing to pretend to an adult.

If I met a bloke who told me his name was Jenn, or some other female name, I'd be happy to refer to him by that name, BUT I would still use the pronouns for his biological sex because that's reality (and the way our language works) and I'm not prepared to lie and going against my beliefs in order to validate someone else.

"So your saying that not affirming someone’s identity could actually lead on to major mental health problems? Do you have any evidence for this, or anyone else who backs up this claim?"

My partner needed therapy after being repeatedly mis-gendered on Mumsnet.

If accidental - no big deal. If done deliberately, then it is done to wound and hurt.

What do you mean 'deliberate'? Calling a man a man is not accidental or deliberate - it is stating a fact.

I was on a bus once and a young mum and dad were sitting near me. The dad was teasing his ≈3 year old daughter by saying 'you're a boy' and she would scream at him 'I'm not a boy I"m a girl' and finally when he did it about the fourth time she just burst into tears screaming 'no, I'm a girl'. Her mum then shouted at him to stop winding her up. Most humans have a strong built in need to be seen as the sex they know, or feel, they are.

I had this all my life.
But you know you are a woman and apart from casual misgendering it doesn't drastically affect your life.

It doesn't mean you have a body, or parts of your body, that feel embarrassingly the 'wrong sex', or look in the mirror and see a face that looks like the wrong sex, or can't be intimate or have sex with someone the way you want to, or find it hard to find a partner because you're not accepted as the sex you feel you are, or can't have children. For some trans people every time they are misgendered it is a reminder of all that, and for many it's painful.

Most professionals who treat gender dysphoria believe there is a core gender identity, and that is what underlies the feeling that a person is a particular sex (or should be). For most people they are identified with the physical sex they are anyway, so it won't feel any different from being an identity that is actually based on that physical/ biological reality.

If accidental - no big deal. If done deliberately, then it is done to wound and hurt.

Deydo, that is a very different situation. You can’t honestly think it’s comparable.

AssisinatedBeauty, unfortunately on here most people are determined to use their ‘right’ to deliberately and persistently misgender a colleague. Accidental misgendering is embarrassing for both parties but ultimately not what we’re talking about here.

@rosesandflowers you said "If you refuse to accept people's gender identity, then you're usually transphobic,"

What does "accepting someone's gender identity" mean, to you?

It seems like you're saying that thinking sex and gender are different means you're transphobic? I couldn't care less what people look like or dress like, but I don't agree that it is possible to change sex by changing your appearance. I accept people's appearance and personality as who they are, but that apparently isn't enough. I must agree that this is their gender identity, which supersedes and replaces their sex.