Why is misgendering a big deal?

"Why would not fitting into feminine stereotypes mean that you're not a woman? "

I didn't say it did! In fact the point I was making was that feminine stereotypes are not anything that makes you female. I am a woman (adult human female), this is a simple fact. It tells you nothing about my capabilities, personality, dress sense, etc etc. Sometimes my sex is relevant, most of the time it is not.

I don't have a gender identity, but I'm not trans. I am an adult human female, that's got nothing to do with my identity. Cis is not relevant to me.

If you don't understand how cis is used to other and dismiss and indeed abuse then I find that hard to believe.

Your partner assaulted a woman who misgendered her? Was this the cause of the bleeding?

I think the phrase "by a woman" implies that the woman insulted the partner, not vice versa

No. Trans women never come under the umbrella term of women, as they are men. Women come under the umbrella of women. That is the point of an umbrella.

Only if you redefine 'women' to mean something other than just 'adult, human, female'

Women is generally affiliated with gender, not sex, but due to widespread delusions that they are one and the same it is sometimes used interchangeably.

But selectively feminine/masculine words are part of the construct, not an innate part of XX or XY. As I said before.

"Can you come up with a definition that includes me, and my sisters, and Laverne Cox, but not my DP or sons? Because I have asked many people for one, and have yet to get one."

"Woman is someone with (or who could get) a female passport" gets close.

You are aware how much hurt you cause by saying this. People end up needing medical attention. Do you really not care about people?

How can that end up in people needing medical attention?

"Trans women never come under the umbrella term of women, as they are men."

You are aware how much hurt you cause by saying this. People end up needing medical attention. Do you really not care about people?

It is completely INaccurate to call adult human females 'cis' women, because as has been advocated, the cis part relates to a pairing between the psychology of all females AND a concept called 'gender' that is as mythical as unicorns.

Oh FFS! This one takes the cake! You can't just discount words because they're reliant on a social construct. Language itself is a social construct!

Both trans women and cis women come under the umbrella term of "women"

Only if you redefine 'women' to mean something other than just 'adult, human, female'

What definition of 'woman' do you have which includes both transwomen and adult human females, but not men?

Can you come up with a definition that includes me, and my sisters, and Laverne Cox, but not my DP or sons? Because I have asked many people for one, and have yet to get one.

Yep. Not that long ago ago my partner assaulted by a woman who misgendered her.

Your partner assaulted a woman who misgendered her? Was this the cause of the bleeding?

I've genuinely never understood what's the point of being angry about the term "cis."

Really?

From someone who expects us to accept that calling a male 'male' is devastating?

What's the point of being angry when people call a man a man?

If you are adult, you are adult.
If you are human, you are human.
If you are male, you are male.
If you possess all three attributes you are a man.

It is completely accurate to call adult human males men, because that is the definition.

It is completely INaccurate to call adult human females 'cis' women, because as has been advocated, the cis part relates to a pairing between the psychology of all females AND a concept called 'gender' that is as mythical as unicorns.

"More often than not, that "point" will escalate into something nasty."

Yep. Not that long ago ago my partner assaulted by a woman who misgendered her. There was a witness but the police lost the witness's contact details

No. I am a woman.

"I'm not a Galaxy! How dare you! I'm a chocolate bar!"

Both trans women and cis women come under the umbrella term of "women", but in some discussions, such as this one, it is easier to separate them and a word you can just put in front of it such as "trans" or "cis" is a lot easier than having to do some kind of waffling phrase like "a person with a vagina" or "a non-biological woman".

the issue is that many women don't have a gender identity and don't identify with the stereotypes associated with femininity. That's the issue with cis, plus the use of it to dismiss, diminish and other women.

Why would not fitting into feminine stereotypes mean that you're not a woman?

If you don't have a gender identity, then you wouldn't be cis, would you? Don't get me wrong, I do know that many agender etc. people don't mind being referred to as women, but depending on the discussion surely they wouldn't be called cis? Or if they were, they wouldn't mind, just as they don't mind being called "women"?

Also, how is being called "cis" dismissive/diminishing?

For trans people it does not always work like that.

Where was your partner bleeding from that the hospital referred them to a psychiatrist?

why exactly should I care which sex the person checking me in at the hotel thinks I look like?

This is implausibly stupid. Of course it would affect a trans person differently to a cis person! For hugely obvious reasons.

Yes, and to get to a mentally healthy state, they need to work on that - it's not healthy to be so affected by a random person, performing a task completely unrelated to sex.

Pffft. There is nothing inherent about gendered pronouns corresponding with a sex. "Grammatical gender" is part of the social construct rather than the biological fact

Yes, exactly - but words - which are all socially constructed - mean things, that's the social convention we have, that when we say chair, we mean that thing with legs and a back which we sit on. When we say 'the feminine grammatical gender' in reference to an animal or a human we are referring to someone/something that is female.

If the feminine grammatical gender corresponds instead with the feminine social gender then a) people have been misgendering me all my life, and b) we're going to need to be able to define the feminine social gender, and c) there's going to be a lot more judgement around as people try to guess whether to use he or she based on what shoes someone's wearing!

If words don't mean things, then we have no point of reference to work on.

Trying to force people to lie is abusive.

"someone was bleeding, then a hospital would see them. Why would they refer someone who was bleeding to a psychiatrist? Where were they bleeding from?"

For trans people it does not always work like that. For a time stories were collected on Twitter against #transdocfail

Misgendering can be a big deal to me...
I "pass" but am also quite open that I'm a transwoman, so those who were initially happy to use female pronouns (but then switch to male ones) are generally trying to make a point.
More often than not, that "point" will escalate into something nasty. That may be a series of rude comments that lead me to cut that person out of my life.
That has also developed into actual violence (and I don't mean hurting my feelings when I say that, I mean deliberately scolding me, attacking me physically) probably about 4/10. I don't think I've ever met anybody who has deadnamed and misgendered me and still retained any other respect for me. More often it's the catalyst of physical or verbal abuse.

That's not to say that I think the act of misgendering is literal violence in itself; but I exercise extreme caution around anybody that misgenders or deadnames me.

@rosesandflowers the issue is that many women don't have a gender identity and don't identify with the stereotypes associated with femininity. That's the issue with cis, plus the use of it to dismiss, diminish and other women.

You are a cis woman. So, you are not a trans woman.

No. I am a woman.

I know a senior man (again XY for the avoidance of doubt) of Italian heritage who has a name that is male is Italy and female in the UK.

He is often mistaken as woman before people see him in real life.

He just shrugs. Because that is what grown up people do.

To those on the thread that believe in gender as an actual thing that is real and exists innately in a person, can you explain what you understand gender to mean?

And why you use sex based terms like male, female, man, woman, if it is different from sex?

What is gender?
Is it individual?
Or a group thing with shared characteristics?
Is it feelings, beliefs, etc?

My position is that I have a sex, but not a gender, and I also refute that anyone 'has a gender'. (If it doesn't exist nobody has one!)

I am open to being convinced, but in several years of asking this question I only ever hear circularity and evasion.

If gender is real it ought to be articulated by those who believe in it.

*I don't think people understand. Her GP referred her to our local hospital because of bleeding. We got there and the consultant refused to see her and said she should instead see a psychiatrist about her bleeding. That's the reality of being trans. It can be that the misgendering is a trigger but it also piles on top of years of facing discrimination.

If someone was bleeding, then a hospital would see them. Why would they refer someone who was bleeding to a psychiatrist? Where were they bleeding from?

Whenever my husband (a male human being with XY chromosomes for the avoidance of doubt) speaks to a call centre or take away restaurant they always reply with “madam”

He just shrugs.

That what grown up people do. He knows that his voice is often mistaken for a women’s on the phone (I don’t see it myself). And so he just shrugs.

There is no such things as CIS in terms of gender, that is made up to 'other' women who are getting mightily fucked off that Trans women are trying to pretend that trans is a subset of women, like Black women, or Scottish women.

I've genuinely never understood what's the point of being angry about the term "cis."

You are a cis woman. So, you are not a trans woman. And vice versa. It's just a helpful way of distinguishing as to who you're referring to in discussions like this.

I have never met a man who conforms 100% to 'gender stereotypes' and never met a woman who conforms 100% to 'gender stereotypes'. If you are going down the road of 'gender' then everyone is 'non-binary'.

So, we are in agreement then?
That gender does not affect personality, hobbies or preference in colour?

In which case, what's your issue?