Why is misgendering a big deal?

FermatsTheorum that's a great post. Do you mind if I paraphrase it for my local activists? We're having a good online chat at the moment about gender critical arguments.

So for an anthropologist, the observation that some (not all by any means) Native American cultures have Two Spirit people isn't evidence that there really are people out there with two spirits, it's simply evidence that this is a belief set which works for this society in terms of keeping things ticking over and allowing for fairly rigid gender (sex-role meaning of gender) boundaries to be maintained while giving an escape route to the people really made unhappy by these roles.

This is super interesting!

How gender/sexuality develops/changes/is defined as a construct, especially in different societies, is always super interesting to learn more about. I was reading an interesting book about Ancient Greece (that section was on sexuality, not gender, though) and how their views on gender impacted their definitions of sexuality.

My point was - in referral to this discussion - simply that Native America is possiblt the most commonly referred to culture of gender history. Someone mocking a term like two-spirit is an instant red flag that a) they're happy to mock before they learn and b) they haven't really learnt anything.

I don't fear transpeople, I just view them as people suffering from a mental illness who need therapy treatment, and not validation.

It's a modern translation to describe one of the original genders of ancient Native Americans. Two genders has always been a ridiculously simple construct and so the Native Americans had more - 7, I believe, though I might be wrong. Unlike most ancient societies, which almost always had terms for genderfluidity, they were held in great esteem and seen as very special by the Native American people

ERrr - I feel that you probably haven't actually read anything about this subject at all - for a start it wasn't 'Native American people' only some tribes - and people from these and other tribes, from what I've read, find this cultural appropriation pretty damn offensive.

My experience with children and gender identity is that the younger they are, the less confusing it is.

Until the time comes when a self-identified trans-woman/man comes into their space and claims it. See women in sport - the recent Connecticut race where college scholarships are on the line because women cannot compete fairly against TIMs. Hormones don't remove your muscle, VO2, bone density and pelvic structure advantages.

See also all women shortlists in the Labour party; women's refuges being targeted because they refuse entry to male bodied persons because of the risk to the vulnerable women they are housing; language in the repeal of the 8th in Ireland being targeted because apparently we need to talk about "pregnant people" as using "women" is trans-exclusionary.

In addition to all that I find it very difficult to reconcile a school telling a child scientific fact in one lesson, then in the next telling them that verbalising and believing those scientific facts is discriminatory!

There are no real definers of gender

This is an admission that it doesn't exist.

A word with no definition is just noise.
Words represent meaning.
They exist so we communicate with others.
They serve to share concepts and meanings with others.
This is what mutual understanding is.

There IS no meaning to gender.

What you want to do, is to force dissimilar people under the same banner with no justification at all other than you want it.

If gender has no definition then you can not claim that people share the same gender.

GibbertyFlibbert
Until you actually go out with a Trans Woman, for the day and listen to the comments and the sniggers, and the misgendering, You cannot comprehend just how difficult it is for them to lead a normal life, I have two great trans friends one you would not know in any way shape or form that she is Trans, but the other one its quite easy to see, but even when she is wearing a skirt or smart trousers and top she is frequently shouted at called names, and not nice names,
One prime example of how my friend was spoken to in a shoe shop was oh we dont do those in 10, anyway they are more suited to smaller dainty feet, Disgusting that they are treated this way,

@rosesandflowers, I'm not transphobic, I just don't believe in your religious cult.

Wear what you like, call yourself wherever you choose, act however you want to (within the law) , it really doesn't bother me in the slightest, BUT nothing you do changes your biological SEX. Ever.

To say you know someone's gender better than they do is to put your own experience of gender over theirs, and possibly their comfort. Essentially, you're arrogant and close-minded, which would piss someone off anyway, but as misgendering is quite personal and pretty much constant for trans people I think it can very easily hit a nerve.

Many women on this thread are constantly being told we are not allowed to define our own sex. We are gaslit, abused, and told we are bad for wanting to define our own sex, and we are threatened with actual violence (as in, being hit, not someone saying a word we don't like) when we define our own sex.

Where is your compassion for us, rosesandflowers? When do you tell the men that do this to us that they are arrogant and close-minded?

Someone needed therapy from reading Mumsnet...I've heard it all now! And how can any woman with even a smidgeon of self respect lower herself by calling herself cis? 😖

The definition of woman is adult human female. It is a biological term and has nothing to do with the make-believe that is gender, which is complete bollocks.

To repeat. There is nothing innate about femininely or masculinely associated words. They are part of the social construct of gender, not an inherent association with sex.

rosesandflowers: It's a modern translation to describe one of the original genders of ancient Native Americans. Two genders has always been a ridiculously simple construct and so the Native Americans had more - 7, I believe, though I might be wrong. Unlike most ancient societies, which almost always had terms for genderfluidity, they were held in great esteem and seen as very special by the Native American people.

So you're not just ignorant about modern identities - but of history and other culture! wink Good going.

Let's have a think about this one. One can take two perspectives on a given culture's belief system - a kind of "internal one" (what do they say about their own beliefs) and an "external one" (what would an anthropologist/sociologist say about the work this particular belief system is doing in providing a kind of social glue to keep that society together and working smoothly). You're adopting an internal viewpoint - "they say this about themselves and who am I to criticise", whereas one can equally say "they say this about themselves, and I don't share that belief set, but it's interesting to ask where it comes from and why."

I've had many a chat with a friend who's a professor of anthropology about this one. She says that gender roles (old style social sciences meaning of gender as "set of behaviours, clothing, occupations, etc. deemed by a society to be appropriate to one biological sex or the other") are ubiquitous. But they are interesting. They can be either variable across cultures (Medieval Iceland: weaving is a woman's job; Medieval England: weaving is a man's job), or fairly constant. Where they are fairly constant, there's also usually a fairly obvious reason rooted in biological function. So across almost all cultures, looking after small children falls to women, because only women lactate. Handling heavy draft animals, big game hunting (not small game - both sexes typically do this to a lesser or greater degree), being a warrior fall to men because they are physically bigger, stronger and faster on average.

Next comes the society's attitude to transgressing gender roles (in this old-school social sciences sense of "roles attributed by society to one sex or the other"). Some are what she calls "flexible" (she is very insistent that fluid is the wrong word), whereas other societies are "rigid" and have strong sanctions against transgressing gender roles. I guess it's this situation: a widow needs her fields ploughed, borrows her neighbour's ox, and does it herself. Is the reaction "She's a bit of an odd-ball, but needs must I suppose" or is it "unnatural woman, burn the witch"?

Now for where this intersects with trans issues. Third genders/two spirit people/allowed cross dressing like Bacha Posh or Sworn Virgins are much more common as a sociological phenomenon in societies with a rigid attitude to gender boundaries. What they seem to do is provide a safety valve for people who just don't fit. Whereas a society with a flexible attitude to gender can say "well, Freda's just a bit odd, but it's not really doing anyone any harm", a rigid society says "Freda can only do this if she becomes Fred."

So for an anthropologist, the observation that some (not all by any means) Native American cultures have Two Spirit people isn't evidence that there really are people out there with two spirits, it's simply evidence that this is a belief set which works for this society in terms of keeping things ticking over and allowing for fairly rigid gender (sex-role meaning of gender) boundaries to be maintained while giving an escape route to the people really made unhappy by these roles.

I really don't think anyone wants a lecture with the smattering of gender studies you have picked up roseandflowers.

Op, yes clearly as flibgib is explaining the motivation is affirmation.
Or in the case of AGP the motivation is sexual gratification.

We don't have to participate in either. It's not rude or criminal to withhold participation in either.

I think it is the prime motivating factor for these transwomen. That's why they're not happy with third spaces for transwomen as a solution to issues with refuges, prisons, changing rooms or toilets. Because they don't 'just want to pee' or whatever, they want validation.

Agree.

I can see why debate gets so heated.

If I am understanding correctly:

• One group thinks that pronouns refer to someone's gender. The other group believe that they refer to someone's sex as they do when talking about other animals
• one group thinks man/woman refers to someone's gender. The other group and the dictionary believe that it refers to someone's sex

I think this whole thing illustrates why clear definitions are essential.

So, if 'woman' and 'she' was to refer to gender identity, what do I use as an XX person with no gender identity?

No wonder children are confused.

My experience with children and gender identity is that the younger they are, the less confusing it is.

e.g. DD1 found out about being trans at 12. Naively we'd never talked about it with her until one of her friends came out at school. She found the concept fairly confusing and had to adjust to her friends pronouns/name. Now she's absolutely fine with it (sixteen) and whines if DH ever refers to her "non-woke" phase!

DD2 found out in late Reception because her friends older sister is a trans boy. Absolutely no problems at all. Mentioned it to me matter of factly between their new table seatings and the game they'd played that day.

From what I've heard it's very similar whenever young children encounter it. I think it's a lot easier to get when you're a child.

If not affirming someone’s gender identity leads from upset all the way up to mental health problems and possible suicide, should it not be flagged as a powerful motivating factor when transwomen seek to enter sex segregated spaces and positions?

I think it is the prime motivating factor for these transwomen. That's why they're not happy with third spaces for transwomen as a solution to issues with refuges, prisons, changing rooms or toilets. Because they don't 'just want to pee' or whatever, they want validation.

And I think its a very good reason why transwomen shouldn't be training to do cervical smears in the first place. Most male GPs don't do smears anymore, because they know most patients want a woman to do it. There are plenty of other useful things a transwoman nurse could be doing, so why would they choose to train to do smears, if not to seek validation?

@rosesandflowers, gibberish just about sums your posts up.

The definition of woman is adult human female. It is a biological term and has nothing to do with the make-believe that is gender, which is complete bollocks.

The only reason that I know I'm a woman is because I fit the definition of one, ie, adult human female, which is defined as someone who is "of or denoting the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs, distinguished biologically by the production of gametes (ova) which can be fertilized by male gametes".

What makes me, me, are my experiences and personality.

it's such convoluted ideology that even self proclaiming experts like yourself can't keep on track.

It's fairly complex, but honestly there's not that much to "keep track" of.

There's some history - which isn't really that difficult. There are a lot of gender identities - but again, not particularly difficult to learn. And there's no harm in asking someone politely to explain if you don't know or understand.

The linguistic acrobatics that are necessary to conform to the "groupthink" required for self-identification, never fail to astound me. The accusations of "literal violence" when people question and refuse to accept the garbled and reversed standards to which we are supposed to aspire.

There was an interesting thread recently from a secondary school teacher about the curriculum for teaching biology, chromosomes and the reproductive system. Yet we are simultaneously seeing the rise of organisations accessing schools and public authorities in order to "train" them on trans-rights - including ideology that females can have penises and males can have vaginas. No wonder children are confused.

I am frequently reminded of the Orwellian parallels; 4 legs good/2 legs bad, yet look at the pigs at the end of the book...

*What
Is
Gender
?

A social construct. In most cultures, historically and currently it is associated with a particular sex, with those that don't conform given a label when the problem arises and then oppressed

Other cultures have or have had a variety of genders to encompass everybody's identity, and these tend to be more equal.

There are no real definers of gender despite the stereotypes associated with the man/woman binary. In modern culture and in many ancient ones, atypical genders had stereotypes connoted to them too.

"I'm still trying to work out how someone "bleeding" would be sent to a psychiatrist."

Once we pointed out to the hospital that it was unlawful discrimination she was invited back to clinic to see a different doctor. I really don't think people understand how much discrimination trans people face doing things that most people take for granted.