Why is misgendering a big deal?

Cis is not just a descriptor - it is limiting!! It means that people cannot veer out of 'normal' gender identity without thinking they should be trans! It is also offensive that women should identify with the gender roles that have been forced on us...I certainly don't identify with being oppressed, thank you very much!

And cis is used to determine something other than trans when we don't NEED this word...we are simply WOMEN! TIMs are MEN! Women are not other. Women don't need to be others from womanhood.

Stop contributing to women's oppression by using language that others us. As a woman, it is shameful of you!

They're all for gender being bollocks until certain parts of gender work out for them!

You mean biological sex. I am all for women's protected characteristics resulting from their biological sex.

I'm not validating my principles.

You do sound silly.

roseandflowers, to clarify:

Gender is a social construct, gender identity is a made up belief system which is unscientific bollocks, sex is biological reality.

Panda, It is not compassion to collude in a delusion. We don't go along with sufferers of anorexia when they insist they are fat despite being malnourished, do we?? I am sorry for everyone with mental health problems but colliding in a lie they want to create is not helping them! Or anyone else!

Women with a trans history? You mean men What a disingenuous expression, Gibbs.

If someone's identity is so insubstantial that they demand other people pretend
that they are the opposite sex or they'll kick off/harm themself they have problems far, far beyond misgendering.

It seems that the more a trans person knows they're not the sex they claim to be the more furious they become if others don't toe the pronoun line. And going along with someone's delusions is babying them, I feel.

It's like claiming you're Jesus or Napoleon. People may well say "yes, dear", but that doesn't mean they think your delusions are real. If you want to be considered an adult it's best to behave like one.

Of course in everyday life we seldom use sexed pronouns in front of the person involved. I and all the friends/relatives of the TIMs I know use he and his when talking about them. No one sees them as women. I use their names in their presence.

Its funny isn't it how radical feminists are gender critical because gender is a social construct, however if someone wants to be referred to by a particular pronoun (which is also a social construct) thats a 'huge lie' and shouldn't be changed?

Very very good point. They're all for gender being bollocks until certain parts of gender work out for them!

Rosesandflowers you really need to stop using the word 'transphobes'.
Many of your posts come across as someone who is trying to think about stuff and then you use a term that pathologises people who hold different views to you. Not a helpful way to move forward in understanding imo.

I don't think anyone on this thread believes there's no transphobia here.

I haven't called anyone a transphobe directly. I've mentioned transphobic ideals and called them transphobic. I've also referred to transphobes when it's relevant to my point. Not out of place in this discussion - it's at the centre of it.

Also, I've never met a TERF who's not transphobic. Its kind of in the name. And something tells me that a lot of people here are TERFs.

I can avoid the word if it's becoming counterproductive because there is no point on holding onto a piece of language if it works against a good goal

It just illustrates what a sad state of affairs we are in. Whether strangers or even work colleagues know if you are a man or a woman should not matter because they should treat you the same either way. But sadly we all know that this is not the world we live in.

Perhaps we should try and fix THAT first!

Its funny isn't it how radical feminists are gender critical because gender is a social construct, however if someone wants to be referred to by a particular pronoun (which is also a social construct) thats a 'huge lie' and shouldn't be changed?

Feminists have largely had to self-define as "gender critical" because much of the rhetoric being promoted under the guise of "trans rights" is reinforcing gender stereotypes which many feminists find offensive. Therefore the term "gender critical" is being used to demarcate that this is a gender driven discussion - and the constant and incorrect conflagration of the terms "gender" and "sex".

Many feminists, me included, have no issue with being referred to by the pronoun that denotes our sex as women; adult human females.

Both trans women and cis women come under the umbrella term of "women"

No. Trans identified males are a subset of male people, not female ones.

FortunateCookie
Either way, it is difficult to see how her needs could be centred against the pull of such a powerful motivation.

Exactly.

abuse victim, sorry.
FFS. I need to start doing this on my laptop.

And how can any woman with even a smidgeon of self respect lower herself by calling herself cis?

I seriously don't understand. It means I'm a woman and have a vagina. What's the issue? All I've got is some talk of stereotypes but I still don't understand why anybody could possibly get offended by it. It's just a descriptor.

No, I won't agree to change the language to mollify an anxious teenager.
What about an abusive victim that found it immensely triggering?
What if the person had been through conversion therapy?
What if they had a history of self harm or attempted suicide?

How far would you go to validate your principles?

how exactly can it cause so much 'literal violence' when someone doesn't go along with it?

If you mean violence towards trans people from some TERFS/transphobes, it's because they're awful people.

If you mean how does it affect trans people negatively if it's a construct, like I said before, just because somethings a social construct doesn't mean it can't impact life, negatively or positively.

If you mean why do people use violent language towards people or assault them when they misgender them etc. it's because trans people are people. They can be rude, threatening, frustrated, angry or violent just like any cis person can.

If you mean something else, can you specify?

RedPanda I am sorry that you have a child who is unhappy. I can understand that you want to be supportive and use their chosen pronoun.

However how does your child respond when they leave the house and people address them as "she" and "her"? From this point on I am going to refer to your child as your daughter - because it's valid to the point that I am trying to make.

At the risk of sounding blunt, is it counter-productive to accept the anxiety and work to avoid it, instead of encouraging and teaching resilience? Put simply, your daughter is going to encounter many, many situations and scenarios where people address her according to her sex. Whilst she has every right to want to express herself and define her own gender characteristics, surely she also needs to learn to deal with the fact that there are going to be situations where this is not possible?

Rosesandflowers
From what I've heard it's very similar whenever young children encounter it. I think it's a lot easier to get when you're a child.

You mean children don't know enough about the world to know when they're being lied to. If you tell them that people can be 'born in the wrong body' and can then 'change sex', they'll believe it.

Its not that adults don't 'get' transgender ideology, its that we have enough education and understanding of biology to recognise bollocks when we hear it.

Its funny isn't it how radical feminists are gender critical because gender is a social construct, however if someone wants to be referred to by a particular pronoun (which is also a social construct) thats a 'huge lie' and shouldn't be changed?

It seems as though some social constructs should be changed, but others (especially when used to dig at people they don't like) are inviolable.

The biggest lie here is that there isn't any transphobia.

Rosesandflowers you really need to stop using the word 'transphobes'.
Many of your posts come across as someone who is trying to think about stuff and then you use a term that pathologises people who hold different views to you. Not a helpful way to move forward in understanding imo.

@rosesandflowers, if there's no definition or meaning for gender, how exactly can it cause so much 'literal violence' when someone doesn't go along with it?

No, I won't agree to change the language to mollify an anxious teenager. How odd that you expect the world to be so cosseting of her. I would advise learning to cope with anxiety and developing resilience will be more beneficial than encouraging her to get upset about a pronoun.

from what I've read, find this cultural appropriation pretty damn offensive.

When random white people choose to use it instead of a Western term for "the aesthetic", yes.

From my understanding many Native Americans still identify as two spirit.

A word with no definition is just noise.

I said definers, not definition. Sorry if this was confusing, but it was my way of communicating that it doesn't have stereotypes attached to it, which is a fairly common belief.

Until the time comes when a self-identified trans-woman/man comes into their space and claims it. See women in sport - the recent Connecticut race where college scholarships are on the line because women cannot compete fairly against TIMs. Hormones don't remove your muscle, VO2, bone density and pelvic structure advantages.

This is hugely wrong and sports should be sex-segregated if they happen competitively. But that still won't make the concept of a trans person confusing. A child will be confused as to why it's being ineffectively dealt with.

I will say though that transphobes often get pissed when it's the other way round. Remember the trans boy that won the girl's boxing tournament - (actually, after requesting to be put in the boys one, and denied on the basis that it would be unfair to him.) He got slated.

Feel free DMC

I suppose my take as a GC feminist is that it provides an escape route for those who are prepared to "change sex" in order to get away from rigid sex-based roles, but this is an illusory "escape". It provides no escape for those of us who are comfortable with our sex, but don't like the way society tries to shoe-horn us into sex-based roles. We'd rather like society to stop trying to do this to us. In fact, it risks doing the opposite - entrenching those roles still further, with an insistence that the only way out is to change sex. (Which is I think going on in quite a lot of cases of rapid-onset gender dysphoria among teen girls.)

I cannot believe the lack of understanding and empathy on this thread...

My 19 year old has recently disclosed to me that they are non-binary.

If I call them 'she' by accident I can see they are visibly distressed. It is about their identity and finding their place in the world.

Yes, they suffer from anxiety amongst other issues, but that doesn't make their feelings any less valid. And yes, I do believe continuous mis-gendering could lead to increased mental health issues.

If someone asks you to call them by a specific pronoun, be it him, her or they - is it really that hard to respect their request?