Why is misgendering a big deal?

actually you've called me an uneducated transphobe ( or at the very least, you certainly implied it), or had you forgotten?

I didn't literally just write "you uneducated transphobe", did I?

If I was discussing ideals and it felt implied as you hold them, then I did say that that could very easily have happened.

But I've taken the point that that is probably counterproductive, so, apologies.

I assume you're a woman who feels as though she is a woman.

You would be mistaken.

I am an adult human female who knows she is an adult human female because I have ovaries, Fallopian tubes, a uterus, vagina, etc. I know I am female because I was born with a female reproductive system.

The English word for “adult human female” is woman.

Feelings and identity play no part in this. It simply is the objective material reality of my body.

I do not have a gender. Gender is society’s ideas about what is appropriate for men and what is appropriate for women. I do not have a gender identity. I do not have a feeling of myself as a woman or a man.

I do not identify with society’s view (which is what gender is) of women. Society’s view of women is oppressive and misogynistic.

The only thing my female reproductive system says about me is that I have a female reproductive system. It says nothing about who I am as a person. It says nothing about my identity.

I do not have an internal feeling of being a woman. I am person who inhabits a female body.

According to you, this makes me a corpse. Since i am a corpse who is able to type out replies on a message board, I must be a reanimated corpse; ergo, I am a zombie.

Actually I was asking you.

You know nothing about me. And I was talking about her.

Rose and flowers
No, I won't agree to change the language to mollify an anxious teenager.
What about an abusive victim that found it immensely triggering?
What if the person had been through conversion therapy?
What if they had a history of self harm or attempted suicide?

This is an argument meant to play on guilt and the desire to be kind. Yet when similar arguments are put forward to argue for the protection of single sex refuges, hospital wards etc trans people and those who “support” them have no problem at all telling women that they will just have to get over themselves.

It’s interesting whose feelings matter and whose are easily brushed aside.

Transmen? You mean TIW? They're women and I have no problem with them unless they try to enter spaces that are for men such as men's homeless shelters or if they try to compel people to lie and collude in their delusion.

It is abusive, manipulative emotional blackmail. I have experienced an abusive partner trying to control my behaviour with suicide threats and I will not concede here.

I'm very sorry as to what you've endured and happy that you've managed to escape an abusive situation!

But - mentioning suicide in relation to transphobia isn't "blackmail." There's a correlation. Mentally ill trans people can be triggered by misgendering. Simple as. I'm sorry if that's upsetting for you, but it can happen.

In what way is sexual harassment not related to the possession of ovaries, vaginas and breasts? Either directly (as in "show us yer tits") or indirectly (don't employ them, they will only have babies) sexual harassment is by definition related to biological function.

A trans woman in a padded bra and fake breasts could also get asked that.
A trans woman taking hormones could also get asked that.
A trans woman they saw in passing on the street could also get asked that.

Remarks about other parts of the body such as bums and legs are also a thing, and generally they're happy to do this to someone who looks "a woman." They don't know she has a penis.

Thinking of someone as "lesser" in the work place is also usually because of appearance and pronouns too. The remark you made about babies is obviously specific to biology. But if a woman was trans and they didn't know, they'd still use it. And the original principle of disrespect is applied to trans women, whether they are open about this or not, if they are perceived as a woman.

@rosesandflowers, actually you've called me an uneducated transphobe ( or at the very least, you certainly implied it), or had you forgotten?

I don't really care, but at least use a more accurate word. I don't fear transpeople, I just don't believe humans can change sex.

Alternatively, I offer you a trans individual from a different indigenous background. Still a man. Uses a female name. Requests female pronouns. Works at a sex education service teaching that it is transphobic to refuse to sleep with trans people.
Both totally real and in my circle.
One follows his traditional culture. One, erm, has become rather fond of rose’s colonial model.

The law will then recognise that change, as a change of sex, without having to change the unalterable 'acquired at conception' aspect.

By the law, I assume you mean with a GRC. G as in Gender, whatever that is. You are then a transwoman.

Apropos of nothing, I have a two spirit friend. He is a man. He uses a male name and male pronouns. He actually turned down a trans award recently due to internal conflicts about cultural appropriation.
I am loving your attempts to colonize though, Rose. Fucking hilarious.

Either directly (as in "show us yer tits"

Do you really think that has never been said to a trans woman by men thinking they are just a woman?

They have no idea at all what it is to have lived experiences as girl and women and it is hugely insulting for a member of the oppressing class to think he can identify into the oppressed class!

Like I mentioned, they soon find out. But my points on this argument are:

1. Whether or not they complicate misogyny issues, they exist. Simple as. You could say that Asian people contribute to racism against black people due to the model minority ethos of the 20th century if you were an utter twat. But both Asian and trans people do exist, frankly, so you're going to have to solve any issues caused instead of just hating them for it.

2. Trans people are also very oppressed. Extremely oppressed.

3. Does this mean you don't have a problem with trans men?

That is "acquired" at conception and is unalterable.

Indeed. But you don't actually need to change that for a tans person to be able to live their life in a functional way. You can change your hormones. You can change aspects of your body, including your face with surgery - often enough to relieve dysphoria and for the average person to see them as that sex. The law will then recognise that change, as a change of sex, without having to change the unalterable 'acquired at conception' aspect.

Trans women deal with a lot of misogyny that isn't really about your reproductive organs; sexual harassment for one.

In what way is sexual harassment not related to the possession of ovaries, vaginas and breasts? Either directly (as in "show us yer tits") or indirectly (don't employ them, they will only have babies) sexual harassment is by definition related to biological function.

I've said that IMO, it's the decent thing to do because of the effects it can have. If my description of said effects makes you feel emotional, it's not because I've blackmailed you. It's because it's genuinely very sad.

It is abusive, manipulative emotional blackmail. I have experienced an abusive partner trying to control my behaviour with suicide threats and I will not concede here.

What does that feel like exactly?

You don't even need to ask that question Juzza because she knows she is one. For her, feeling like a woman will be no different to knowing she is one. Because she isn't trans.

When people with gender dysphoria undergo treatment to appear, live, and be legally recognised and affirmed as their acquired sex, then there is evidence that they become well.

If someone is able to live in the way that makes them happy, providing only that it doesn't hurt others in the process, that is good and I rejoice with them.

But they cannot change their sex. That is "acquired" at conception and is unalterable.

Then back off with your arrogant demand that I should lie to protect male feelings. And your emotional blackmail.

Super interesting. Again - male feelings. Why aren't you so angry about trans men?

I've said that IMO, it's the decent thing to do because of the effects it can have. If my description of said effects makes you feel emotional, it's not because I've blackmailed you. It's because it's genuinely very sad.

And I'm not interested in a game of whataboutery with you.

Well, I'm sure you'd know what to do in such a situation

Anyone else asserting they wouldn't use a trans persons pronouns interested in answering my question?

TRAs not trad!

It absolutely is a delusion when these men think they actually are women.

It isn't.
#askapsychiatrist

Super match I have no problem whatsoever with men wearing the clothes they want or changing their name to a more feminine one. What I DO object to is the delusion they are now WOMEN because they do these things. They have no idea at all what it is to have lived experiences as girl and women and it is hugely insulting for a member of the oppressing class to think he can identify into the oppressed class!

Men can live how they want as long as it harms no one...unfortunately with TRAd this is not the case, is it? And they will remain men, no matter what they do. To say otherwise is a delusion.

simply that Native America is possiblt the most commonly referred to culture of gender history

Multiple repetitions of one slightly misleading and very ethnocentric viewpoint does not make it accurate.
Native America is not one culture, any more than Africa or Europe have one homogeneous culture. Interpreting any ancient culture from the context of modern Western society is fraught with problems. Look at the history of anthropology for examples of "insight" proving a contemporary case which look ridiculous a generation later.