Why is misgendering a big deal?

Would you seriously and deliberately misgender them if they had endured conversion therapy, had severe mental health issues, or come from an abusive transphobic household?

No, I would avoid using pronouns at all. I wouldn't lie to prop up a psychological delusion.

@rosesandflowers, nobody identifies as a man; if you were born with a penis, testes, etc you are male (and when grown up you're a man), whether you like it or not.

If you're born with a vulva, vagina, etc, you're a woman aka female, and believe me, there's no identifying out of it!!

@rosesandflowers

If you have an intense fear of men (as stated before, not just discomfort in them being allowed into areas you'd prefer to be sex-segregated, not a phobia) addressing that fear is the best way to be happy, healthy and to succeed.

I'm sure there are plenty of women with a history of assault or abuse who can generally function well but need some spaces to be segregated by sex - places where they feel more vulnerable such as changing rooms. According to some TRA types feeling like this makes you transphobic and literally (their word) responsible for transwomen's deaths so you have a duty to have counselling.

Personally I think that's bonkers. Counselling doesn't work for everyone, it can be difficult to get unless you have the money to pay and even then you have to find the right counsellor for you and even then you have to do it for yourself not for anyone else.

Transmen don't seem to go round saying that sort of thing.

And for the record, I'll call a person whatever name they choose and he/she/it whatever. But there are limits, and there are some women-only places that I don't think Transwomen should be in, generally they would be support services/accommodation for women who have been abused, raped and/or suffered DV, prisons, hospital wards and changing rooms. There also needs to be limits on which women's sports Transwomen can participate in.

Oscarina. Third space sorts the problem

So, let me get this straight; you'd call someone "he" throughout their whole life. Then one day, they'd go into a surgery room, get their penis lopped off and a vagina constructed, and you'd be happy to call them "she"?

"he" and "she" are third person. You don't address someone in third person. You call them "you" or use their name.

Just wondering rose if I can't quite come round to thinking women can have penises, does that in itself make me a 'terf'?

And if he’s uncomfortable not being allowed in and she would be uncomfortable if he was allowed in - equal amounts of discomfort, what then?

Why would he be “uncomfortable “? Surely the full weight of misgendering would fall upon him with all its triggering impact.

The question, which you have neatly ducked, was about TIMs not TIFs.
Whoops - a mistake. But as I asserted in the post, obviously a traumatised woman would come first.

Not if she knows "he" isn't actually a man. Which in most cases is perfectly obvious.
You think that just because he didn't have a vagina she wouldn't be scared? If she's traumatised by the figure/silhouette of a man and a man's voice? And he passes well, maybe takes hormones - just has a vagina?

And if you Google "pre-op" trans man, some are fairly obvious. Some are not at all.

Awareness about what? I am aware of their psychological issues and need to control people, I don't think I should be forced to lie in a way which erodes the concept of women as an oppressed sex class. And I think you have a total lack of consideration of other women. Which isn't very decent. So there we go.

I meant in the sense the sense that your "lying", as you put it, could have an enormous impact. Nobody has answered my question yet. What would you do in that situation? Would you seriously and deliberately misgender them if they had endured conversion therapy, had severe mental health issues, or come from an abusive transphobic household?

If so, you could be contributing to someone's severe issues based on a principle. I think that's disgusting.

So abused women have to fucking put up with males in refuges etc, but we should change the fabric and nomenclature of society to accomodate "Mentally ill trans people" (your words)?

1. Abused women shouldn't have to have males in refuges.
2. This reminds of me what someone was saying earlier First you're gender-critical, then it's the "fabric of society"! When I was discussing mentally ill people, I was discussing trans people with a history of self-harm and suicide. Yes, I think we should do everything we can do to help any person suffering with mental health issues like that.

In situation 1, it is everyone else that needs to accommodate the person feeling distressed by honoring their wishes. In situation 2, you appear to be asserting that people feeling a similar level of distress should not be accommodated, and actually need therapy to overcome their objections to the situation. The people in situation 2 need to change, not everyone around them.

Is this what you are trying to say, or am I misreading?

Misreading.

If you're trans, being able to live life as your identifying gender is the best way to be happy, healthy and to succeed, as I think I've said.

If you have an intense fear of men (as stated before, not just discomfort in them being allowed into areas you'd prefer to be sex-segregated, not a phobia) addressing that fear is the best way to be happy, healthy and to succeed.

Similar levels of mental stress, maybe, but entirely different situations.

I've gathered you've all got a lot of feelings about this word … so am going to stop using it. Is "non-trans" a preferable substitute

Give it a fucking rest you utter twat.

While it may make the trans man uncomfortable, the woman clearly is traumatised and forcing her to live with him would be counter-productive, and as such she needs to be prioritised. She will need support in the refuge, obviously.

The question, which you have neatly ducked, was about TIMs not TIFs.

If she is traumatised by the figure and sound of a man, he will inevitably terrify her.

Not if she knows "he" isn't actually a man. Which in most cases is perfectly obvious.

You’ve got it, Luna. As a pp said, ludicrous! Women have to be constantly educated on how to pander to selfish men, it seems. Even those women who have been attacked and assaulted by them.

To unpack your deep internalised misogyny would no doubt require quite a bit of therapy. You are putting the feelings of males over those of women without a second thought.

A woman has escaped domestic violence and is living in a women’s refuge. The violence she was subjected to has left her traumatised- the sound of a man’s voice, the sight of a male figure, no matter how it is dressed, make her relive her fear and pain and cause her mental and emotional damage.

A man who identifies as a woman believes he should have access to the same refuge. He believes that to refuse that access on the grounds that he is male is transphobic and misgendering.

Whose interests prevail?

While it may make the trans man uncomfortable, the woman clearly is traumatised and forcing her to live with him would be counter-productive, and as such she needs to be prioritised. She will need support in the refuge, obviously.

The trans man needs to be referred to a mixed refuge if this is possible. If possible again, a woman's refuge where this isn't an issue - one where there isn't a chance of a similarly traumatised woman needing a place.

If no other option is available, a man's refuge (but of course his pronouns etc. should still be respected).

Out of interest - could any of you solve this problem?
A trans man who looks and sounds completely like a man who was born with a penis ((seriously, can I please say cis man?) but has a vagina needs a place in this refuge. If she is traumatised by the figure and sound of a man, he will inevitably terrify her.

What do we do with him?

In all honesty, if you'd genuinely refuse to call a trans person their preferred pronouns, I think it's profoundly difficult to debate. It shows a total lack of awareness and decency.

But here we are.

Awareness about what? I am aware of their psychological issues and need to control people, I don't think I should be forced to lie in a way which erodes the concept of women as an oppressed sex class. And I think you have a total lack of consideration of other women. Which isn't very decent. So there we go.

Roses

These two statements make your attitude to women really fucking clear

If you have a pathological fear of men, that's incredibly stressful for you. Therapy to lessen this fear would make you feel better. You will most likely have to interact with men throughout your life so it will be impeding social interactions and work. If it's caused by trauma, therapy help you come to terms with this.

Mentally ill trans people can be triggered by misgendering.

So abused women have to fucking put up with males in refuges etc, but we should change the fabric and nomenclature of society to accomodate "Mentally ill trans people" (your words)?

Absolutely not.

In the post it was asserted that it would be a comparable situation. General discomfort is natural. It's not comparable to the excessive reactions to misgendering I was discussing.

Apologies for not making this clear.

So wait, we’re talking about two situations which can cause distress - (1)trans people being misgendered, and (2)women being faced with a male human being in a female space.

In situation 1, it is everyone else that needs to accommodate the person feeling distressed by honoring their wishes. In situation 2, you appear to be asserting that people feeling a similar level of distress should not be accommodated, and actually need therapy to overcome their objections to the situation. The people in situation 2 need to change, not everyone around them.

Is this what you are trying to say, or am I misreading?

It is just not possible to argue logically with such a point of view.

So, let me get this straight; you'd call someone "he" throughout their whole life. Then one day, they'd go into a surgery room, get their penis lopped off and a vagina constructed, and you'd be happy to call them "she"?

In all honesty, if you'd genuinely refuse to call a trans person their preferred pronouns, I think it's profoundly difficult to debate. It shows a total lack of awareness and decency.

But here we are.

Roses

Here is a hypothetical

A woman has escaped domestic violence and is living in a women’s refuge. The violence she was subjected to has left her traumatised- the sound of a man’s voice, the sight of a male figure, no matter how it is dressed, make her relive her fear and pain and cause her mental and emotional damage.

A man who identifies as a woman believes he should have access to the same refuge. He believes that to refuse that access on the grounds that he is male is transphobic and misgendering.

Whose interests prevail?

I'd call a trans woman a woman. If she's not having surgery for some reason or got it booked for a later date or whatever, then she has a penis.

Ludicrous.

Because trans identified females are f generally our problem. Entitled males who want to take over womanhood and centre their own demands are.

So, due to you being most likely to be affected by trans women, you're pushing the focus on them even in general areas of conversation that apply to all trans people?

And now someone has complained that the term "cis men" isn't used often in the conversations?

Well of course it's not!

I'd call a trans woman a woman. If she's not having surgery for some reason or got it booked for a later date or whatever, then she has a penis.

So there we have it. A man with a penis can be a woman.

It is just not possible to argue logically with such a point of view.

Weird that you would say that the only therapy offered is conversion therapy then. What did you mean? That obviously doesn't happen in the UK, and isn't the only therapy offered in many other places too.

Well generally, therapy sessions would be to determine if you are trans. In my understanding it's very often done for young children.

Once you are established as trans, the only therapy offered to reverse the reality of being trans is conversion therapy (unless I've misunderstood). Which doesn't really reverse it, and is hugely psychologically harmful.

Interesting how Rose is so keen to earnestly defend all aspects of male “identity” crap and yet can’t even bring herself to use the word “woman” when talking to, you know, women.
Yet doesn’t see the hypocrisy or offensiveness in that.

It's not only people with penises that identify as trans or elsewhere on the gender spectrum, you know