Why is misgendering a big deal?

If someone has an internal sense of having 3 eyes, not two, would you call them a three eyed person?

People with a sense of having 3 eyes wouldn't become less delusional and more functional if they were given a third eye or treated as if they had. Many trans people do become more functional when given appropriate transition treatment. There is an evidence base to back that up.

3 eyes not so much.

How would society accommodate this? Female-only workplaces, shops? This would be a huge accommodation, and how exactly would you put into place female-only roads or streets? There's no way that a society could manage to accommodate her not coming into contact with men. She'd have to deal with this herself - by essentially not going out. Not healthy. At all.

We accomadate that by having female-only spaces as refuges where these women know they will be safe. Y’know, safe spaces. Where women can work through their trauma in a supportive environment with other women. We already have these spaces. Women worked very hard to make these spaces. These spaces are currently under attack for being “transphobic.”

For a trans person the adjustment we're talking about is literally saying "she" instead of "he", or vice versa. In other cases on the gender spectrum, "they". Might be a bit confusing at first, but we're not talking rebuilding an entire city.

How exactly are going to get everyone, everywhere, at all times, in all circumstances, to always use the correct pronouns? It’s one thing to expect coworkers to address a trans person by their chosen names and pronouns - and I don’t think it’s unreasonable to expect that. And it’s one thing to expect this as a politeness, and those that don’t as rude. But how exactly do you police the world’s language to this extent? There are rude people out there. There are also people who have ethical and philosophical objections to this. Wouldn’t it also be a good idea to help trans people become more resilient, the way you think women traumatized by men should be helped to be resilient?

And, if somebody finds misgendering extremely triggering and there are no other factors, surgery will probably happen at some point. This will solve their issue with misgendering

How so?

And where there is a mismatch in how you perceive your biological sex it's a psychological condition.

Thought by many in the field to also have a biological component.

Me too Ereshkigal

Yes you can possess a gender identity. It is your internal sense of what sex you are.

But sex is an objective set of organic, physical attributes, not a sense of self.

If someone has an internal sense of having 3 eyes, not two, would you call them a three eyed person?

I wouldn't lie to prop up a psychological delusion.

I'm assuming you're not actually qualified to diagnose someone as delusional?

I find the lack of respect for my boundaries by these males very telling of their male socialisation.

A woman who is unable to interact with any man without extreme fear and distress will spend the majority of her time either terrified or inside her house. This will not change based on the behaviour of those around her, she is afraid of men, point blank, no matter what they do.

Such a woman can be helped to get over her trauma through accessing help. This help is most effectively delivered, in the first instance, in a space where males are not around.

As a victim of domestic violence and controlling abuse, I find the gaslighting and entitled demands that I accept men as women when I don't believe it upsetting. I find it triggers traumatic memories of being coercively controlled. Perhaps TIMs, and you, could consider that.

Conversion therapy is abhorrent. Whether it's trying to "convert" a child away from their sexuality or gender identity. It's something I will never support. Is that the definition Mermaids gives out? When did they say that? If so how very garbled and unprofessional … and just plain wrong. My only real understanding of Mermaids was that they helped trans children/parents of trans children adjust and provided resources/help.

On twitter, from their official account, in response to a question of how they would define a "trans" child and a "cis" child. Mermaids, by the way, now has charitable status and is one of the official Amazon charity partners.

And where there is a mismatch in how you perceive your biological sex it's a psychological condition.

Woman suffers actual physical harm, abuse and potential threat to life. Woman is traumatised. Woman told she has to 'get over' trauma by counseling etc so that she doesn't upset any men who say they are women.
Man says he is a woman. Man is traumatised if someone calls him by a pronoun he doesn't like. Man told his trauma is totally justified and that all efforts will be made to make sure he is never traumatised again.

No, the woman should get some form of help for her problems so she is able to function happily and healthily within society Are people deliberately misinterpreting, or am I just being extremely unclear?

A woman who is unable to interact with any man without extreme fear and distress will spend the majority of her time either terrified or inside her house. This will not change based on the behaviour of those around her, she is afraid of men, point blank, no matter what they do.

A trans person for whom misgendering is a direct trigger for suicidal thoughts, traumatic flashbacks etc. will only have issues if they are misgendered. As such, not being misgendered means that they will be fine, though they should probably also receive counselling to work through things if their reaction to misgendering is borne from trauma or mental health issues.

You cannot possess a gender identity if there is no meaning to the word gender.

Yes you can possess a gender identity. It is your internal sense of what sex you are.

Is that about it??

Yep.

According to the dodgy figures from Mermaid and Stonewall, that's at least half of them. And 'triggered' by all the misgendering. Does this 'therapy' you prescribe for tramatised women ever extend to these 'mentally ill' people then or it is just abused women who need to get their heads sorted?

Yes, a large number of trans people have some kind of mental health issue. Not surprising really.

As stated in my previous post, if a trans person has another mental health problem or trauma of course they should receive help for it. Just as any person with a mental health issue should receive help for it.

Yes they are heartbreaking. How do you feel about Mermaids' definition of what makes a child "trans": that a "cis" child is happy in their gender and "fancies the opposite sex" and a "trans" child is one who doesn't? What do you think the implications are for gay and lesbian children? When viewed through the lens of what you've just written, it's almost as if they are suggesting conversion therapy for same-sex attraction...

Conversion therapy is abhorrent. Whether it's trying to "convert" a child away from their sexuality or gender identity. It's something I will never support.

Is that the definition Mermaids gives out? When did they say that?

If so how very garbled and unprofessional … and just plain wrong. My only real understanding of Mermaids was that they helped trans children/parents of trans children adjust and provided resources/help.

It makes no sense to send a patient that's bleeding to a psychiatrist unless they were convinced of something weird and the Dr. suspected mental health issues were at play, eg, like a man thinking he's having a period, which is as ridiculous as it is impossible.

I imagine that the partner went to the Doctor as they were bleeding, Doctor fixed the bleeding but noticed they were extremely upset by the event and referred them to a psychiatrist to help them cope.

Of course I don't know but that's what's most plausible.

surely pleasant human society is based on not saying things we know will upset others for absolutely no good reason?
For a lot of people, "I just don't believe in trans people" is a good reason.

Sad, really.

OK-let me see if I have this right.
Woman suffers actual physical harm, abuse and potential threat to life. Woman is traumatised. Woman told she has to 'get over' trauma by counseling etc so that she doesn't upset any men who say they are women.
Man says he is a woman. Man is traumatised if someone calls him by a pronoun he doesn't like. Man told his trauma is totally justified and that all efforts will be made to make sure he is never traumatised again.
Is that about it??

So you are saying that women need to address the source of their distress to help them be more resilient when dealing with men, but trans people should not have any kind of therapy to help them be more resilient when dealing with misgendering.

So you are saying that one group’s distress should be accommodated by society, but the other group needs to deal with it individually through therapy.

If a woman has an intense phobia of men, she can go through therapy to help herself cope. Or, if it's distressing to the level described in a previous post, where she finds it traumatising to hear a man's voice, she can avoid men forever.

How would society accommodate this? Female-only workplaces, shops? This would be a huge accommodation, and how exactly would you put into place female-only roads or streets? There's no way that a society could manage to accommodate her not coming into contact with men. She'd have to deal with this herself - by essentially not going out. Not healthy. At all.

In order for her to have a functioning life, she will have to learn to cope with this trauma.

For a trans person the adjustment we're talking about is literally saying "she" instead of "he", or vice versa. In other cases on the gender spectrum, "they". Might be a bit confusing at first, but we're not talking rebuilding an entire city. And, if somebody finds misgendering extremely triggering and there are no other factors, surgery will probably happen at some point. This will solve their issue with misgendering.

Of course if they have other mental health problems/trauma then that should be sorted out to enable them to be happier as well.

"When I was discussing mentally ill people, I was discussing trans people with a history of self-harm and suicide"

According to the dodgy figures from Mermaid and Stonewall, that's at least half of them. And 'triggered' by all the misgendering. Does this 'therapy' you prescribe for tramatised women ever extend to these 'mentally ill' people then or it is just abused women who need to get their heads sorted?

No - conversion therapy is a tool used to try and literally "convert" LGBT+ teens from their identity. It's absolutely awful and I think the suicide rates are about 50%. I've read some accounts and they're heartbreaking.

Yes they are heartbreaking. How do you feel about Mermaids' definition of what makes a child "trans": that a "cis" child is happy in their gender and "fancies the opposite sex" and a "trans" child is one who doesn't? What do you think the implications are for gay and lesbian children? When viewed through the lens of what you've just written, it's almost as if they are suggesting conversion therapy for same-sex attraction...

If you have an intense fear of men (as stated before, not just discomfort in them being allowed into areas you'd prefer to be sex-segregated, not a phobia) addressing that fear is the best way to be happy, healthy and to succeed.

So you are saying that women need to address the source of their distress to help them be more resilient when dealing with men, but trans people should not have any kind of therapy to help them be more resilient when dealing with misgendering.

So you are saying that one group’s distress should be accommodated by society, but the other group needs to deal with it individually through therapy.

Similar levels of mental stress, maybe, but entirely different situations.

What is so different here? We’re talking about people experiencing distress. How is it that misgendering is such a specially distressing situation that trans people need accommodating; but it is not such an especially distressing situation that women who have experienced rape or assault or trauma at the hands of men need therapy to get over their pathological fear of men, not accomadation?

@GibbertyFlibbert, have you explained where/what the bleeding was yet?

It makes no sense to send a patient that's bleeding to a psychiatrist unless they were convinced of something weird and the Dr. suspected mental health issues were at play, eg, like a man thinking he's having a period, which is as ridiculous as it is impossible.

Not read the whole thread, because I'm pretty sure I'll find it far too distressing, but just in short - surely pleasant human society is based on not saying things we know will upset others for absolutely no good reason?

There are lots of areas in which I perceive the world differently to other people and so I try and learn to communicate in a way that minimizes distress. On MN, for example, I was told TERF was insulting and offensive and so I learned to switch to 'gender critical'.I was told 'cis' was upsetting to hear, so I stopped using it. On a broader level, we no longer refer to People of Colour as 'nggers' or people from Pakistan as 'pkis'. I don't tell other women they look fat, or tell women who are having problems with fertility that I don't get what the big deal is - I got pregnant in a heartbeat, but if they can't manage it, they should stop whining.

In all those cases, I bet those people have family and friends who affirm their life experiences and how some words make them feel. I still don't think it's reasonable to say "well, so what's the big deal if someone at work wants to say this stuff?"

Rose
The 'fabric of society' is based on the fact that humans are a sexually dimorphic species. Which is exactly the Gender Critical position.

Not the fucking gender guff that you come out with.

and back

A trans woman in a padded bra and fake breasts could also get asked that.....

How does that challenge my point that sexual harassment is rooted in female biology? If anything it proves it is body and not identity.

A man transitioning to female body type (as opposed to wanting to identify female whilst retaining the physical and societal privileges of males) may well get comments in the street similar to those women receive. However they won't suddenly gain the lifetime experience of being the second sex and the cumulative effect of growing up with million small acts of harassment and control due to being female.

Their lived experience is necessarily different.

I was identified as second class from the day I was born, society reinforced that in endless little ways growing up. Undoubtedly I internalised some of that misogyny, however feminist I might think myself.

These are not experiences anyone growing to adulthood with male privilege can share. Any more than I would presume to tell someone what it is like to grow up with gender dysphoria.

"he" and "she" are third person. You don't address someone in third person. You call them "you" or use their name.

Exactly.