Why is misgendering a big deal?

We're concerned with women's and girls' rights and women's and girls' safety. Bolstering TIMs' subjective feelings is not our job, and fuck anyone who says it is.

As far as I can tell from this thread, trans ideology is all about smashing women's boundaries and forcing people to lie while attempting to guilt-trip women by waving the alleged shrouds of poor, so-sensitive TIMs at them. Bollocks to that.

Most of the women on this thread have said No, very very clearly. The type of person who refuses to accept or believe it when a woman says No is a dangerous person to be around. Women generally don't wish to have anything to do with people who refuse to listen when we say No.

No.

This x 1000.

@lunamoth581, I was about to make the same point you've made in your post at 17:42.

In the trans example, roses expects everyone else to accommodate the transperson's feelings and change their behaviour to make the transperson feel better about themselves.

Whereas, in the 2nd example, with the woman experiencing distress, roses then expects the woman to make the changes & have therapy to feel better about herself, and not for everyone else to alter their behaviour.

I think that says it all, really.

If you mean trans when you say "misogynistic sexual fetishism of cross dressers" then that is massively transphobic and awful.

You might want to check with Stonewall and other trans advocacy groups on their definition of transgender. Cross dressing fetishists are trans.

Even if Mumsnet is a bit of a hotspot for those that are of similar opinions.

An understanding of basic biology - yeah weird that from a forum based around motherhood.

It's more about how they ride roughshod over my boundaries as a woman and no one gives a fuck, roses. And this has come about because of the ridiculous lie that these psychologically disordered males are women. And my wish not to perpetuate the erasure of women as a biological oppressed class. But you forget all the cross dressers and other males wishing to play power games with women. Perhaps you just aren't very well informed about these issues. It's not just about dysphoria now.

I gathered that there were other reasons from your previous posts... but seriously, if the "forcing" thing is a big issue (obviously I don't know you but as it's come up a couple of times) I would seek out some support for that.

Lots of people "give a fuck." The fact that I'm arguing with about six people at once proves you're not exactly alone in your viewpoint, even if Mumsnet is a bit of a hotspot for those that are of similar opinions.

Gender-based discrimination and sex-based discrimination aren't mutually exclusive. You can acknowledge and work against both. Trying to devalue trans people instead of just combatting both types of oppression is not only counter-productive and requiring of a lot of energy you could be putting into something else, but it can be very harmful to an extremely oppressed group.

Of course it's not just about dysphoria. It was always going to be broader than dysphoria, it always has been. But to make life better for everybody we have to encompass these issues as one, not uplift one group at the detriment of another.

Do you think women should be forced to be props in the misogynistic sexual fetishism of cross dressers, roses?

If you mean trans when you say "misogynistic sexual fetishism of cross dressers" then that is massively transphobic and awful.

If you're just referring to people with a fetish for crossdressing for some reason, then no, obviously women shouldn't be coerced into being props for that or any other sexual fetish

If people with sexual fetishes were going to coerce anybody, isn't that more of a concern for men? Feminisation is the more popular form of cross-dressing as a sexual thing, isn't it?

As far as I can tell from this thread, trans ideology is all about smashing women's boundaries and forcing people to lie while attempting to guilt-trip women by waving the alleged shrouds of poor, so-sensitive TIMs at them. Bollocks to that.

Most of the women on this thread have said No, very very clearly. The type of person who refuses to accept or believe it when a woman says No is a dangerous person to be around. Women generally don't wish to have anything to do with people who refuse to listen when we say No.

No.

Conversion therapy is abhorrent. Whether it's trying to "convert" a child away from their sexuality or gender identity. It's something I will never support

This is another way TRAs have co-opted lesbian and gay issues for themselves. 80% of children who seek treatment for GID desist from feeling they would like to be of the opposite sex after puberty. That's not even taking into account lots of children who have these feelings but don't seek treatment. Many, many posters on here have experience of this when they were children. It is obnoxious to compare thoughtful treatment of children to avoid a lifetime of medical and surgical intervention with "conversion therapy" for lesbian and gay children.

If - and this is in the kindest way possible - you are actively contributing to the detriment of someone else's mental health because you don't like doing things which you perceive as being coercive, I think you do need some help.

Wait, what? This was written in response to a person telling you that being forced to say something that they don’t think is true - that being forced into going along with something they don’t believe in - triggers memories of abuse.

If people don’t like being coerced into saying something they don’t think is true or to endorse things they don’t believe in, you think they are the ones that need help?

Wrong one. This one

Well no, a woman who was recently assaulted has already been told to call a man a woman in court. That is the point.

And it was actually considered "provocation" despite happening after the assault and was a reason said male didn't get a more serious sentence.

Ok so we are not being forced. So we can say no-someone is free to ask but we are free to say no,right?

Except it doesn't work like that. There is emotional blackmail aka coercive control used in order to force a lie

you are actively contributing to the detriment of someone's mental health is just a wolf in sheep's clothing. These are your words. I.e. "if you don't lie look what terrible thing you are doing". Sounds abusive to me.

I think the woman would have grounds to refuse if it really didn't sit right with her.

Well no, a woman who was recently assaulted has already been told to call a man a woman in court. That is the point.

Many trans people do become more functional when given appropriate transition treatment.

Good for them. I'm not their therapist any more than I expect any concessions from them other than to have the decency and respect for women to stay the fuck out of female sex segregated spaces.

Have a look at this roses, since you like the men so much

No. Prejudice which is why another doctor took the appointment a few days later

So you confirm they were bleeding thinking they were having a period?

Man rapes woman and judge in court tells woman that she needs to refer to her rapist as 'she' as that is how he now identifies.

You ok with that I take it?

That would be an example in which 'coercion' is much more appropriate so not really very relevant, if I'm honest.

I think that's an odd priority for the judge to have. If this was given more priority than the actual rape, that's strange and wrong. (Has this ever happened?) If it was, I don't know, added as a footnote or the rapist's lawyer brought it forward as a request it's not odd exactly, though still perhaps out of place at a rape trial. I'd imagine they would focus on that. Would it be important from a legal POV if they had legally transitioned?

I think the woman would have grounds to refuse if it really didn't sit right with her.

non-trans ISN'T required, just the word woman will do, seeing as that's the correct term for an adult human female.

Established, thank you.

Prejudice which is why another doctor took the appointment a few days later

That's horrific

I thought that was much more common in the US than here. Isn't it illegal in the UK?

Especially after the ordeal your partner had gone through. to both of you x

Do you think women should be forced to be props in the misogynistic sexual fetishism of cross dressers, roses?

*my wish not

It's more about how they ride roughshod over my boundaries as a woman and no one gives a fuck, roses. And this has come about because of the ridiculous lie that these psychologically disordered males are women. And my wish note to perpetuate the erasure of women as a biological oppressed class. But you forget all the cross dressers and other males wishing to play power games with women. Perhaps you just aren't very well informed about these issues. It's not just about dysphoria now.

@rosesandflowers, non-trans ISN'T required, just the word woman will do, seeing as that's the correct term for an adult human female.

But if the belief that you are being "forced" is solely what means you would find it difficult to respond to a trans person's request to call them by the correct pronouns

Man rapes woman and judge in court tells woman that she needs to refer to her rapist as 'she' as that is how he now identifies.

You ok with that I take it?

"It makes no sense to send a patient that's bleeding to a psychiatrist unless they were convinced of something weird and the Dr. suspected mental health issues were at play, eg, like a man thinking he's having a period, which is as ridiculous as it is impossible."

No. Prejudice which is why another doctor took the appointment a few days later

Such a woman can be helped to get over her trauma through accessing help. This help is most effectively delivered, in the first instance, in a space where males are not around.

Yes, obviously. I've never said anything to the contrary.

But she does need help to live life happily. That's what everyone is questioning.

On twitter, from their official account, in response to a question of how they would define a "trans" child and a "cis" child. Mermaids, by the way, now has charitable status and is one of the official Amazon charity partners.

Really?

Awful. Can someone link the tweet?

I find the gaslighting and entitled demands that I accept men as women when I don't believe it upsetting. I find it triggers traumatic memories of being coercively controlled. Perhaps TIMs, and you, could consider that

Is it entitled for someone to ask you to say "he" instead of "she"? Remind you that you are, for the most part, being asked. Just as I couldn't "force you" to agree with what I'm saying, a trans person asking you to use their preferred name/pronouns is not "forcing" you.

If - and this is in the kindest way possible - you are actively contributing to the detriment of someone else's mental health because you don't like doing things which you perceive as being coercive, I think you do need some help. I have the utmost sympathy for your situation and think it's awful that something has happened to you. But if the belief that you are being "forced" is solely what means you would find it difficult to respond to a trans person's request to call them by the correct pronouns - especially if this is directly harmful and not just uncomfortable for them - then your past experience is impacting your life and how you interact with others. This won't just impact them but it must be impacting you too.

But sex is an objective set of organic, physical attributes, not a sense of self.

Yes, thank you, MsBeaujangles, exactly this!