Why is misgendering a big deal?

I suffer from severe rheumatoid arthritis, especially in my hands, so I'm very slow at typing as it's extremely painful. I'm also trying to sort out my dc, and generally run a household, etc, at the same time, so sometimes a post will take me hours to compose.

Ah, I see. Apologies.

So you are saying that a person who does not want to say something that they do not believe is true is off-base and needs to examine that?

Could you please take a class in reading comprehension? I think every post you've made directed at me has been wilful misinterpretation!

I'm saying that if traumatic experiences in your past have forced you to rebel against requests, because you feel there is some coercion there even when there isn't, you need to get that looked at, because that will impact both you and others.

Had a look at the tweets by the way @DailyMailClickBait. Very strange and unprofessional. Quite odd.

It sounds like whoever's running the account has got their wires crossed.

But pointing out that it could have severe consequences for the other person when it very well could is just something you have to consider. If that makes you feel sad, well, I'm not responsible for your feelings

It doesn't make me feel sad. It makes me note that you are attempting to emotionally blackmail me to coerce me to act in a way injurious to my interests.

Nice reversal though there. Quite TRA like.

Whilst there are many sociological factors which can contribute towards sexual attraction - appearance, behaviour, culture and so forth - there is a significant weighting in favour of biological and genetic programming. To use a rather crude example, why would you have gay men who are only interested in being penetrated, rather than doing the penetrating? Who have never had intercourse with a woman and don't intend to? There was a large study in 2012 which found strong evidence of a genetic component in determining male sexual orientation.

Put simply, there is a basic right to determine and have agency over who you want to have sex with. If you support a woman's right to be a lesbian and not want to have sex with penises, then you cannot support the trans-ideology that refusing to have sex with a TIM is discriminatory. Bear in mind that the majority of TIMs retain their male genitalia.

No - I said that a woman incapable of interacting with males would have no way of coping within society. There's no way she'd be able to live a life unable to talk to or look at a man without extreme fear or distress. Being a man isn't something you could control. Their behaviour would be irrelevant - her issues are based on men, not their behaviour. That's not hard to understand.

With a trans person troubled by misgendering, the issues are directly associated with people's behaviour and the way they interact with them - not people just being there.

A person who becomes suicidal when someone doesn’t use their preferred pronouns is similarly unable to cope in society. It is similarly unreasonable to expect that the whole world will go along with a person’s preferred pronouns.

But, again, in one instance you are saying that the world needs to change, and in the other instance you are saying that the individual needs to change.

Yes it is. It is manipulative emotional blackmail to get me to participate in a lie which is harmful to me and my interests. I'm not responsible for their feelings any more than they are responsible for mine.

No, you're not "responsible for their feelings". But you could impact them, which could potentially be very damaging! It's your choice to "participate" or not, with that taken into account.

But pointing out that it could have severe consequences for the other person when it very well could is just something you have to consider. If that makes you feel sad, well, I'm not responsible for your feelings. And it would most definitely be a lie to say it couldn't have severe results.

And, FGS @MsBeaujangles - I'm not saying women should be forced to share spaces with men if they have an intense phobia of them. I'm saying that it would be beneficial for said women to try and overcome that phobia, because it's very very difficult to go through life avoiding men completely.

It was based on the example of a woman who couldn't even hear a man's voice. If she goes out the door to collect the post she could very easily hear a man's voice as he walked down the street. It would be extremely difficult to live with. As such, counselling/therapy would help her- as there's no way that she could only exist in sex-segregated spaces. Roads, shops, workplaces etc. wouldn't be able to provide that.

@rosesandflowers, those posts hadn't been written when I started typing my reply.

I suffer from severe rheumatoid arthritis, especially in my hands, so I'm very slow at typing as it's extremely painful. I'm also trying to sort out my dc, and generally run a household, etc, at the same time, so sometimes a post will take me hours to compose.

I'm sorry if that annoys you, but I can't help it.

I said that if the belief that trans people were trying to "force" her into doing something by requesting it was strongly impacting how she interacted with them, she should look into it as it would probably impact other areas of her life.

So you are saying that a person who does not want to say something that they do not believe is true is off-base and needs to examine that?

And where's the decency and respect for women who don't want a man who identifies as a woman doing their smear test SMG? Or flashing them in a psych ward? Or sharing a prison cell? Or insisting on being given a brazilian despite having a cock and balls? Or taking over women's sport?

Why does this decency and respect go one way? Why the fuck should I have respect for anyone who is looking to trample over my hard won rights and freedoms?

The legitimacy of their identities and transition means that most women have the decency and respect to welcome them into female sex segregated spaces.

No they don't. Women don't want males in their spaces. When it was the odd transsexual or two we tolerated it to be kind. Not the whole "trans umbrella". We don't want part time Pippa in there thanks. And we don't want men doing our smear tests or being our rape counsellor if we have requested a female.

The legitimacy of their identities and transition means that most women have the decency and respect to welcome them into female sex segregated spaces.

I think I might have to partially disagree here.

Often it's not a question of "decency" but, as has been discussed, a phobia. Discomfort isn't telling of decency and it isn't really fair to say whose discomfort takes priority over the other.

In spaces like lunch groups or whatever, I'd say it's the decent thing to do as their penis has no bearing whatsoever. In a place like a spa, I can understand why it might be more uncomfortable.

Others felt that being "trans-exclusive" was transphobia and nothing more.

That is homophobia.

It didn't actually address it any of the times you have posted it. It just means you give the feelings of males with delusional psychological issues primacy over those of females.

No - I said that a woman incapable of interacting with males would have no way of coping within society. There's no way she'd be able to live a life unable to talk to or look at a man without extreme fear or distress. Being a man isn't something you could control. Their behaviour would be irrelevant - her issues are based on men, not their behaviour. That's not hard to understand.

With a trans person troubled by misgendering, the issues are directly associated with people's behaviour and the way they interact with them - not people just being there.

to stay the fuck out of female sex segregated spaces.

The legitimacy of their identities and transition means that most women have the decency and respect to welcome them into female sex segregated spaces.

Sorry, forgot to add:

Tara had a public GoFundMe page specifically to fundraise for voice-surgery, which is designed to shorten the vocal cords and feminise a male voice. The page was taken down but an archived copy exists. The opening paragraphs read:

Hi, I'm Tara and I'm a 25 year old trans woman.

Right now I'm transitioning and I'm saving up for voice surgery. The procedure shortens the vocal chords, which will feminise my voice so it matches my identity, and allow me to pass completely.

The above does not align with Tara's defence of being frightened of being publicly identified as trans.

It's not "emotional blackmail" to point out that it can easily have negative consequences. It's the truth.

Yes it is. It is manipulative emotional blackmail to get me to participate in a lie which is harmful to me and my interests. I'm not responsible for their feelings any more than they are responsible for mine.

Strike through fail, but I hope that helps Rose understand. I doubt it somehow as they seem determined not to!

Ah, thank you! And sorry for missing it.

Additionally are you aware of radical TRAs promoting the theory of "the cotton ceiling"? That lesbians and gays who don't want to date or have sex with trans-people are being labelled as transphobic and as "genital fetishists"?

The agenda of some of the most vocal TRAs takes on a rather different hue when you start looking at the effects it is having on gay and lesbian men and women.

The first time I heard this was from my DD, discussing it with her friends. Not long ago.

Some were of the opinion that some lesbians/gay people were "trans-inclusive" and others "trans-exclusive" and that came innately with sexuality. Others felt that being "trans-exclusive" was transphobia and nothing more. One girl pointed out that most lesbians/gay men would be perfectly attracted to a passing trans person should they not know their sex organs.

I never actually came to a particular opinion on it. I'd be open to dating a trans man (if I wasn't married, obviously) but that obviously doesn't define how everybody else would feel about it. I'd say that trying to force someone to date a person they didn't want to is wrong in any circumstance.

Willing to be educated on this though because literally, I heard about it a week ago.

I said that if the belief that trans people were trying to "force" her into doing something by requesting it was strongly impacting how she interacted with them, she should look into it as it would probably impact other areas of her life.

Yes, it does. But I guess I'd better suck it up at all times and make sure to prioritise male feelings.

Roses
A -trans person- woman who has experienced male violence for whom -misgendering sharing spaces with males when they are in a vulnerable situation is a direct trigger for suicidal thoughts, traumatic flashbacks etc. will only have issues if they are -misgendered forced to share certain spaces with men. As such, not being -misgendered- forced to share these spaces means that they will be fine, though they should probably also receive counselling to work through things if their reaction to -misgendering-- being forced to share said spaces is borne from trauma or mental health issues.

The case of Tara Wolf. Note the judge's comments about use of pronouns.

www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/transgender-activist-tara-wolf-fined-150-for-assaulting-exclusionary-radical-feminist-in-hyde-park-a3813856.html

Also worth noting - and what wasn't picked up in court - was that Tara's defence of being scared for her safety if she was "outed" as a TIM, was total rubbish. Tara had a public GoFundMe page, which was created in March 2017. The assault took place six months later.

If it's still unclear, please feel free to go back and consult the first and second time and see if that is more understandable.

It didn't actually address it any of the times you have posted it. It just means you give the feelings of males with delusional psychological issues primacy over those of females.

Roses it was linked to earlier in the thread, but for ease of reference:

gendertrender.wordpress.com/2016/06/08/the-anti-gay-agenda-of-mermaids-uk-transgender-children-charity-and-political-lobby/

Additionally are you aware of radical TRAs promoting the theory of "the cotton ceiling"? That lesbians and gays who don't want to date or have sex with trans-people are being labelled as transphobic and as "genital fetishists"?

The agenda of some of the most vocal TRAs takes on a rather different hue when you start looking at the effects it is having on gay and lesbian men and women.

Whereas, in the 2nd example, with the woman experiencing distress, roses then expects the woman to make the changes & have therapy to feel better about herself, and not for everyone else to alter their behaviour.

I think that says it all, really.

This is copied and pasted from the third time I had to say it:

A woman who is unable to interact with any man without extreme fear and distress will spend the majority of her time either terrified or inside her house. This will not change based on the behaviour of those around her, she is afraid of men, point blank, no matter what they do.

A trans person for whom misgendering is a direct trigger for suicidal thoughts, traumatic flashbacks etc. will only have issues if they are misgendered. As such, not being misgendered means that they will be fine, though they should probably also receive counselling to work through things if their reaction to misgendering is borne from trauma or mental health issues.

If it's still unclear, please feel free to go back and consult the first and second time and see if that is more understandable.

SMG
Many trans people do become more functional when given appropriate transition treatment. There is an evidence base to back that up

What does people becoming more functional with treatment have to do with sex being an objective set of organic, physical attributes, not a sense of self?

I realise that people are trans, I want society to be accepting of them and for them to access evidence based support. This does not mean denying the objective criteria that determined categorisation by sex. Trans people can and do thrive in a society that acknowledges sex.

People are born male or female. They remain that way for life. People can and do define and express their gender identity and sometimes, in doing so, they draw upon internalised ideas about sex. The fact that they link their gender identity to sex does not mean that the criteria that determines sex should be changed.

No matter what physical interventions people access, people born of the class that produce sperm will remain that way until death and people who are born of the class that produce ova will remain that way until death.

Wait, what? This was written in response to a person telling you that being forced to say something that they don’t think is true - that being forced into going along with something they don’t believe in - triggers memories of abuse.

If people don’t like being coerced into saying something they don’t think is true or to endorse things they don’t believe in, you think they are the ones that need help?

You do like a bit of misinterpretation, don't you?

I said that if the belief that trans people were trying to "force" her into doing something by requesting it was strongly impacting how she interacted with them, she should look into it as it would probably impact other areas of her life.

Many, many posters on here have experience of this when they were children. It is obnoxious to compare thoughtful treatment of children to avoid a lifetime of medical and surgical intervention with "conversion therapy" for lesbian and gay children.

I was discussing conversion therapy - not any other kind of treatment. It is used to "treat" trans children too.

Except it doesn't work like that. There is emotional blackmail aka coercive control used in order to force a lie
To deliberately misgender someone is to run the risk that they are someone who will have a very poor reaction to it. You have no real way of knowing how badly it will affect them.

It's not "emotional blackmail" to point out that it can easily have negative consequences. It's the truth.

And it was actually considered "provocation" despite happening after the assault and was a reason said male didn't get a more serious sentence.
Can someone link me to what case this was? (and the mermaids tweet?)