I just peak-trans'd again!

*Sorry posted too soon. So actually you are denying womanhood to anybody who hasn't get managed to complete the legal process.

GibbertyFlibbert

And you will see it is a paraphilia and therefore totally different to the issue of gender identity

I was replying to your post here where you said:

I am struggling with this AGP you mention. What is it? Can you please tell me where I can find it in DSM 5 so that I can check your claim that it is a male fetish?

AGP=autogynephilia= taking fetishistic cross-dressing/transvestism to its extreme

You can change your name by deedpoll, you can't change your legal sex (at present) until after a 2 year transition period. You said their documents need to say female in order for them to be a woman.

But I don't believe that the stupid XX/XY nonsense

You mean the basis of human evolution?

Lol...How do you think you got here exactly?

Picassospaintbrush
Re the DSM. I was a bit surprised, because like the person I was replying to, I wasn't aware that the The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders would have fetishes in it. I was aware that gender dysphoria or gender identity disorder was in there, but not transvestism.

Your sex is determined by your chromosomes, XX being female and XY being male. This can usually be determined by observing physical characteristics at birth, if not then dna testing can clarify. Rarely some individuals have a disorder of sexual development (intersex) where their sex cannot easily be determined. That's it. It's not complicated, and a lot more straightforward than some guff about documentation and "living as a woman".

"Wow so you would deny transwomen who haven't yet managed to complete their legal transition their womanhood? Isn't that transphobic?"

No. In England it takes ten minutes online to change name by deed poll and driving licence, passport and bank account can be done a few days later. I said nothing about completion of the legal process - birth certificates are a pig to change.

Also we are back to the circular definitions as usual:

"What is the definition of a woman" - anyone who's driving licence says they are female.

Ok.

What is the definition of female?

I just don't want any penis-havers in women-only spaces.

No Peen, no problem-o!

Can we get "penis haver" on the documents?

I simply have to pick up on this Gibberty (I know others have but I don't see an answer):

"Anyone whose ID (driving licence, passport and bank account etc) is female. In short, anyone who lives and works as a woman" - whatever about "living as a woman" (presumably that means handing over said "female" passport at the airport), wtf do you mean by "working as a woman"?

Are we back in the 1950s. Again.

"Prove me wrong"

I think you need to prove your side to us first. The source of your info on intersex conditions is pretty suspect, this is the front page: secondtype.tripod.com/index.htm

"Well, you're at odds with most trans activist organisations then @GibbertyFlibbert."

Maybe. I am a woman. Like most women here, I value spaces which are used only by women. But I don't believe that the stupid XX/XY nonsense is practical nor does it include and exclude the right people. For one, I don't want to be sharing those spaces with trans men. They are men. They belong with other men.

So biology can't determine sex but driving licenses can. I don't have. driving license and my passport has expired. Can I stop using contraception now then?

I'd love to know what living/working as a woman means.

Gib is going for this disingenuous load of old bollocks because paperwork is the evidential requirement in the GRC application process. To supply evidence that you have been "living as a woman" for two years = sending in copies of your leccy bill showing you as a customer with a woman's name; sending in a copy of your driving licence where you've put your "gender" as "female"; your payslips showing a woman's name.

It's laughable, really.

Wow so you would deny transwomen who haven't yet managed to complete their legal transition their womanhood? Isn't that transphobic?

"Biology shouldnt limit who we are but the identification of a vagina at birth means in all but a tiny tiny exception means you are a girl and thus forth will experience biological female proceses such as menstruation, menopause and in some cases childbirth and be treated socially by the rest of the world both male and female as so. Men can perform woman as much as they like but they will never actually walk in our shoes"

No. You are ducking the question. The definition needs to be robust so that there is clarity. So no exceptions please. I don't believe a comprehensive biological definition is possible, certainly not with severe prejudice against some women. Prove me wrong.

Well, you're at odds with most trans activist organisations then @GibbertyFlibbert.

"So what about transwomen who claim to be women and identify as such but without legal documents saying female? Are they men?"

If their documentation is entirely male and they aren't trying to change it then, yes, pro tem I think it is reasonable to regard them as men.

I'd love to know what living/working as a woman means.

Biology shouldnt limit who we are but the identification of a vagina at birth means in all but a tiny tiny exception means you are a girl and thus forth will experience biological female proceses such as menstruation, menopause and in some cases childbirth and be treated socially by the rest of the world both male and female as so. Men can perform woman as much as they like but they will never actually walk in our shoes

So biology can't determine sex but driving licenses can. I don't have. driving license and my passport has expired. Can I stop using contraception now then?

I have told you. Anyone whose ID (driving licence, passport and bank account etc) is female. In short, anyone who lives and works as a woman.

And most of us here disagree with you, because we tend to think actual biology is more important than paperwork.............

You classify people based on 'gender', I don't, I prefer sex. You keep trying to persuade us that since there may be a small number of people with various intersex conditions, that means that sex as usually understood by biologists (and scientists of various other descriptions BTW, who can usually cope quite well with XX/XY as a basically binary system ) should be thrown out as unreliable, and we should go by declared feels instead. Objectivity thrown out and replaced by a load of totally subjective utter bollocks.

You live like that if you want, but I think it's total nonsense. I'll stick to biology (plus happens to be the main reason why women are oppressed, so a teeny bit relevant in my day to day existence!).

It really is insane, this level of insistence that biology isn't this clear. I mean, if you were looking at the biology of trees say (where speciation can get a bit complicated), or slime moulds (Dictyostelium discoideum has three sexes apparently, clever ole slime mould!), then that would be interesting. But claiming that humans don't have two sexes is madness. True, we have almost infinite variations of personality, likes, dislikes, clothing choices, sexual orientation, but that is just the full range of human personality and behaviour. But sex (apart from the banging squishy bits together side of it!) is (sadly) fairly binary...............

Abnormalities during development do not mean there is a spectrum of male/female sex.

The abnormalities prove the binary otherwise they wouldn't be developmental disorders.

And a "gender identity" is analogous to a soul, not a physical developmental disorder - despite all the irrelevant studies the flailers fling down.

I think for Gibberty working as a woman may mean working whilst wearing a dress.

Different society - which is why I said "lived and worked as a woman".

By choice? Ie. they got to choose? Or is it valid if someone looked between their legs at birth and went 'Nope, you can't be a taxi-driver, you have to stay at home in an abaya and watch the kids'

Because I think this is where your idea falls down - lots of people aren't 'living and working' as women because that's what they chose, but because that's what their society chose for them when it saw the vulva.

Gib really is fielding a full complement of offensive canards, I must say.

I'm beginning to think Gib is either a fifth columnist or a parody.

A cartoon version of an incel MRA transactivist in Viz wouldn't be this obnoxious and wrong about everything.