I just peak-trans'd again!

"That's because the current rules state that a diagnosis of gender dysphoria is required to get a GRC. Under self-ID the transvestites would be able to get one as well."

No. A diagnosis isn't required. When the Gender Recognition Act was first passed, a fast track operated to grant GRCs based on how people were living. Essentially self-ID. Nobody has ever identified any problems with the people admitted under the original fast track. Then we automatically recognise people who self-ID in Ireland, Malta etc. Many of those aren't in the statistics because they don't need a GRC at all. In fact, for most immigrants and visitors we go entirely on passport anyway.

A significant proportion of those with GRCs are already self-ID.

Also, when you get right down to it although a doctor might record a diagnosis of gender dysphoria in practice it is largely self-diagnosed so even those with a diagnosis have, to a certain degree, simply self-IDed.

The present situation is also badly broken as described elsewhere.

Presentationally I understand it looks as though self-ID is a big change but once you start looking at the practicalities, it doesn't change the type of person who will change their birth certificate at all, just removes a ton of bureaucracy which gets in the way of vulnerable people.

Transvestites aren't going to change their birth certificate. The whole essence of transvestism is being male but cross-dressing - although of course some will develop gender dysphoria and transition as they grow older.

Half-a-bee, philosophically
Must ipso-facto half not-be.
But half the bee, has got to bee
Vis-a-vis its entity ... d'you see?
But can a bee be said to be
Or not to be an entire bee
When half the bee is not a bee
Due to some ancient injury

@Lunatrap, I think it's because @GibbertyFlibbert's partner is trans; and from their comments, I'm guessing that he's a Trans Identifying Man as Gibs is extremely insistent that TIMs are really just a subset of women, which is quite literally bollocks.

Now, their reason for being so insistent could be very telling.

So flibberty glib what do xx and xy chromosomes represent if no female/male."

Nothing. Take a look at this page for examplesecondtype.tripod.com/ais.htm. Are they men or women on that page?

AIS is a disorder. Something has gone wrong in the body of someone with it. It is a biological abnormality. There is a partial or complete inability of manycellsin the affected genetic male to respond toandrogenichormones.

It doesn't have any impact on how we classify people generally, any more than conjoined twins do, or people who are born missing a limb. Biology is very messy when it goes wrong but the disorder is a rare anomaly. The whole field of biology would probably slightly fall apart if suddenly you couldn't classify anything without accounting for every anomaly and disorder out there. Personally I really really don't want science to move forwards by classifying people according to what their driving license says. For one, doses of medication administered would suddenly be completely wrong.

If you want an honest answer I would say someone with AIS is hard to define as absolutely strictly male or female - it's an intersex condition. The clue is in the name. In the case of Complete AIS in particular, it's more simple because the individual presents as female to the point of having female sex organs and a female bone structure, etc etc and so of course we treat these people as women. If you have grown up with a vagina and with feminine facial features, say, then you will have experienced feminine socialisation. No they aren't 100% women but it is no threat to me to say they are.

I can see it gets a more complicated when you get onto partial AIS but then I personally do have issues with intersex people like Caster Semenya competing in sport against women. But DSD are very complex and I think it's always going to be hard for society to accomodate these cases in some areas. It's ok to say we need to have more discussions around them in sports for example.

Transwomen are biologically 100% male.

They are not intersex.

Feelings are not biology.

Feelings are not reality.

Men have child birthing reproductive systems, you can change your sex by deedpoll and several groups that include marginalized women can't be called women if men can't too. I'd say there are a fair few feminist issues arising from all that utter nonsense.

It's shameful.

Oh get over yourself. Some of us GAF about women and girls and massive social and legislative changes that will take their rights back several centuries.

Mosaicism is clearly a very unusual disorder of development. Those with unusual sex chromosomes XXY or similar will have those chromosomes throughout every cell of their body.

What is it with this obsession of taking rare disorders and using them to try and prove that men can be women and vice versa?

The board needs renaming, it's no longer to do with feminism and all to do with trans bashing. It's shameful.

Oh come on. When TRAs on here are telling us that trans women [aka men] have 'birthing reproductive systems' - surely even you can't sit there nodding?

Since when has feminism only been about trans bashing and peak transing.

Indeed. The board needs renaming, it's no longer to do with feminism and all to do with trans bashing. It's shameful.

" includes most trans women"
Are you really claiming that most transwomen have a partial child birthing system???

A penis isn't a uterus and can't give birth, did no one explain the birds and the bees correctly to you.........An inverted penis isn't an incomplete birthing system, and frankly extremely insulting to those females with various issues with their female reproductive systems that it is.

It's gets madder every minute! How these numpties ever manage to have sex and not reproduce all over the place whilst claiming that this biology isn't true puzzles me...................

I think Gib should explain to us what how the gender identity of an MRA and a TRA differs. Because I, for one, am struggling to see any divergence.

I find the gentle buzzing of bees drowns the tedious, repetitive, irritating noise of, inter alia, MRAs, TRAs, sea lions, whataboutery-ists, goady fuckers, trolls, the wilfully ignorant and the scientifically illiterate.

It is a sovereign remedy and I recommend it to you all unreservedly.

🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝

Not it doesn't. Do you understand what 'child birthing' means?

Does it mean spunking into a sock?

"Explain a few of those ways, please?"

Mosaicism. Genotypes other than XX/XY. Various intersex conditions like AIS in which the typical genotype expression is suppressed

But the practicality is that those who change their ID (almost?) all have gender dysphoria but (almost?) none of the transvestites will as defined by the DSM.

That's because the current rules state that a diagnosis of gender dysphoria is required to get a GRC. Under self-ID the transvestites would be able to get one as well.

Not it doesn't. Do you understand what 'child birthing' means?

"An adult human with a child birthing reproductive system, even where this system is incomplete or not fully functioning." includes most trans women

How so exactly?

"An adult human with a child birthing reproductive system, even where this system is incomplete or not fully functioning." includes most trans women

Explain a few of those ways, please?

"male brains and female brains definitely exist. neurone cells have nucleii which contain the same copy of chromosomes as the rest of the body. each cell will have xx or xy chromosomes, matching the rest of the body."

Factually incorrect in so many ways

"Re the DSM. I was a bit surprised, because like the person I was replying to, I wasn't aware that the The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders would have fetishes in it. I was aware that gender dysphoria or gender identity disorder was in there, but not transvestism."

Yes, as quite different conditions. Personally I am happy to accept as women those with gender dysphoria but transvestites make me uncomfortable in female only spaces. The problem is that insisting on a medical diagnosis is both oppressive and impractical when it comes to entry to same sex spaces. But the practicality is that those who change their ID (almost?) all have gender dysphoria but (almost?) none of the transvestites will as defined by the DSM. I know people don't understand why I say I am comfortable with ID rather than biology but it is based on meeting literally hundreds of trans people. ID works in practice. It is why self-ID doesn't cause any issues.

For the record, I am against changing the definition in the Equality Act from gender reassignment to gender identity. I favour adding gender identity as an additional protected characteristic but with more exemptions than are in for gender reassignment.

male brains and female brains definitely exist. neurone cells have nucleii which contain the same copy of chromosomes as the rest of the body. each cell will have xx or xy chromosomes, matching the rest of the body.

there is brain plasticity which means the brain adapts according to the input it receives, studied, for example in those london cabbies who take the knowledge.

I'm still confused at the idea that women can have penises but a male name on their driving licence is a no-no.

Exactly Luna. How transphobic

Gibberty - biologically, a woman is an adult human being with a female (i.e. child birthing) reproductive system, regardless of whether this reproductive system is fully functioning or complete and who also has no trace of a male reproductive system. This is a watertight definition of the word woman in the biological sense, in my experience. For good reasons we also include a small number of intersex people in the legal definition of "woman" even though they are arguably not strictly female in the biological sense. Just because there is ambiguity over 1% of people we call "women" legally and socially actually being women biologically does not mean that there is ambiguity when it comes to the other 99% of people in this category. And herein lies the problem with transwomen.

The vast vast majority of transwomen are unambiguously male - and given they are also adult and human, this makes them men. Men because they meet the definition of the word "man" in every good quality dictionary in existence, not just in English but in every language on the planet that I'm aware of. If you meet the definition of the word "man" and don't meet the definition of the word "woman" in every good quality dictionary then that makes you a man and not a woman.

Having said this, many words have one mainstream use but can also be used to mean something very very different in certain niche areas. In the niche area of gender identity politics, it is arguable that "woman" has come to have another meaning. But this is not the mainstream meaning. I am a a professional linguist and can confirm that I have come across the word "woman" thousands of times in my professional career and it has only ever meant what all the dictionaries say it means. An adult human with a child birthing reproductive system, even where this system is incomplete or not fully functioning.